Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

[We_Are_VENOM]

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First off, let me preface this by saying the following..

1. As mentioned on another thread, I have many years invested in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's), from family, to friends, to strangers. I am very familiar with them and their theology.

2. I am beginning a series of threads attacking their "Christian" theology and doctrine. This one, as titled, deals with Jehovah's Witnesses and their false prophecies.

3. I have beef with, not only JW's, but ANYONE of whom I believe to be spreading false Christian doctrine. This includes, but not limited to...

A.) Mormons
B.) Catholics
C.) World Mission Society Church of God
D.) Hebrew Israelites

Jehovah's Witnesses are just one of many false Christian denominations. But, we are talking about Jehovah's Witnesses for now.

So, the question is ultimately; Why do I feel as if Jehovah's Witnesses are false teachers? There are many reasons, and one of those reasons is their many failed attempts at predicting prophecy.

Before I continue on post #2, keep in mind that future threads in this series will go straight to the gusto, with no preface.

Just FYI.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #48]

According to Bible chronology, the times of the Gentiles would end in 1914.

What Bible chronology?

How do you know when it started?

JehovahsWitness has given excellent answers to your questions, and some super links to answer the particular subject that you are asking about. Please see post number 58 once again, along with its links, and consider carefully the answers and then respond.

[Checkpoint]

I was referring to the gentile times, as in Luke 21:24.

So was I.

I have nothing to add.

Well, I do have something to add..

I begin by repeating this from my post #81:

Please note at this point that what you summed up does not equate with my particular question.

My one said: "What event did Jesus state would end those "times"?"

Yours said: "what would happen when the gentile time ended".

Do you see what the difference is?

Do you see that that difference is not minor or insignificant?

It is because they are different that you set off on a completely different scenario than the "many" you then mentioned, have.

As in this that you followed on with:

His words implied that there would be a resoration of some kind.

Many see the fulfillement of this prophecy in Israel's takeover of Palestine in 1967 when Jersaulem returned to Jewish control, but Jehovahs Witnesses are not of that number.

It appears that you see no difference between what you summed up and what I actually wrote.

What I saw was this:

My question asked, what would end those times; yours asked, what would happen when those times ended.

You then added: "His words implied that there would be a resoration of some kind."

I guess the rest is JW history, as it were.

In any case, this does explain why there is the "many" answer and the JW one.

For me, at least, it sparks two questions.

1. Is the 2520 years an accurate figure that results from a proper use of the "times" combination?

2. How accurate or authoritative is the date that started the 2520 years?

Have an excellent weekend,

JW

Yeah, I will.

You too.

[We_Are_VENOM]

No, Jehovahs Witnesses have NEVER said this nor have they implied there interpretation are infaillible.

Then I question whether or not these men are being led by the Holy Spirit.

If you call yourselves "God's organization", yet you can't seem to get the correct interpretation as it pertains to Biblical prophecy, then I can only conclude that you aren't God's organization after all.

I have already dealt with the relationship between interpretation and having "the truth" as Gods peolple (with scripural examples) and explained why and how in our literature being Gods people is not to be taken as synonymous with never making mistakes.

And none of your explanations sits right with me.

We sincerely believed we were correct on our understanding and believed we were given such understanding by God. Since God is never wrong, when our interpretation was proved to be erroneous we have humbly recognised we had in fact stepped beyond scripture and attempted to not repeat such an error again.

We retain the same attitude today,

That, or it could be that God never chose your organization in the first place.

Perhaps maybe you should start there; ask yourself, "is this really God's organization"?

Do you think that if God really choose this organization, that he wouldn't have opened and guided their minds to the correct interpretation of Biblical prophecy?

[We_Are_VENOM]

Are you implying Jehovahs Witness official policies encourage dishonest or unscriptural methods? If so would you be so kind as say what those dishonest or unscriptural methods are?

JW

I have reasons to believe that Jehovah's Witnesses (the leadership) have been dishonest about some things. Not all things, but some things.

The difficult part in dealing with a good liars is; most of what they say is actually true. The challenge is weeding through all of the truth in order to pull out the few lies.

It can be 90% true, but 10% lies...and that 10% can be catastrophic, depending on what it consists of..and in this case, it is a very big deal.

The devil (no pun intended) is in the details.

Threads on that stuff coming soon.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Obviously the prophecies (including that referring to Gentile Times) are there to be read and understood (compare Rom 15:4). They are not in scripture for us to ignore and never speak about. Time prophecies (ie prophecies that clearly relate to identifying a period or even a specific YEAR) are there to be pondered over. Sincere lovers of the bible have always speculated over what the more difficult passaages mean... are there is no biblical basis for treating those that present such speculations with distain

There is no problem in trying to understand God's word the way he wants us to understand it, and trying to unpack God's word and solve the deep spiritual "mystery" is all part of the fun, in my opinion.

That is not the issue.

The issue is when you say "I (we) are God's chosen people. God chose us. We are the truth" (any variation of that).

So, you say all of that^...and then you say, while attempting to interpret the Bible, "This (X) means this (Y)."

You've already set the standard high with bold proclamations about yourself, now it is time to see results (accurate) to reflect the statements.

We don't see that in this case. What we see are bold statements, but nothing beyond statements.

Jesus never belittled or reprimanded his disciples for their sincere enquiries, his reply indicated that they must accept that it is THE FATHER that makes decisions as to timing and that GOD reveals his intentions in his own due time to those he so wishes.

Jesus' disciples had lots of misunderstandings, but they had Jesus there to correct their misunderstandings. In Jesus' absence, the Holy Spirit took over. The Holy Spirit guides us and our understandings..

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (John 16:13).

The Holy Spirit did not guide your organization into all truth, nor did he disclose to your organization what is to come.

So I can only conclude that your organization is not of God.

Evidently, the first century was not the moment for such a revelation and they (ie first century disciples) where not to be the recipients of such knowledge. That is not to say however that nobody ever would. Note the experience of Daniel himself in this regard


DANIEL 12:8-10

" Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?”

9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.+ 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined.+ And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.”

NOTE: Daniel is not reprimanded for asking about future events nor for not understanding what had been written. He was told (as Jesus later implied to the Apostles) then was not the time and he(Daniel) was not in the group that would be given such insights.

It was not the time for Daniel, and it wasn't/isn't the time for JW's either, apparently.

Many people criticise Jehovah's Witnesses for expressing opinions as to the fulfillment of time prophecies. However, like Peter and the early disciples they at least are interested in the kingdom and when it will come.

The churches, who have long climbed into bed with worldly government, have for the most part kept their flock in the dark as to such prophecies. In fact, in my experience many people, even those that frequent religion discussion forums, have never even HEARD of the "gentile times" before Jehovahs Witnesses post about them. The early Witnesses of the late 1890's (like Peter and the Apostles) believed theirs was the time God would reveal the understanding of the chronology of end time prophecies. They were out by several decades but were blessed because they did not close the books of Daniel and Revelation and vow never to speak of such things ever again.

MICHAEL STANDS UP!

Daniel's final prophecy includes another interesting detail.

DANIEL 12:1, 4

“During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince [...] “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.

The early bible students of the 1890's had but to wait a few decades, "for the time of the end" to begin. God would eventually reveal an accurate understanding of prophecies "sealed" for centuries. This would not be to people, brainwashed by their religious indoctrination into fearing time prophecies or viewing them as irrelevant for godly living, but to a humble people that never stopped trying to understand the deep things of God. Yes, they had gotten some things wrong but unlike the Christendom and her mislead sheep, they at least had kept trying.

CONCLUSION Jehovahs Witnesses feel no shame for having misunderstood some things, for they are convinced that when Michael the Great Prince stood up and looked for a "faithful and discreet slave" , they were chosen in part for their keen interest in his return and industrousness in preaching about it! They may have walked funny at first but is it for those with no feet to criticise them? (Rom 10:15)

What you fail to realize, JW...is that it isn't just the inaccurate predictions that is concerning. It is the totality of EVERYTHING else that is wrong with the WTS, and the list is long.

If you put all of the errors in one gumbo pot, there is nothing but disaster on the menu.

[JehovahsWitness]

No, Jehovahs Witnesses have NEVER said this nor have they implied there interpretation are infaillible.

Then I question whether or not these men are being led by the Holy Spirit.

Do you question have the same doubts about the Apostle Peter, Moses? What about Jonah? The Prophet Nathan and any of the other Godly men and women that said and did things that were erroneous? What about Samson? Samuel? It is entirely unbiblical to conclude that infallibility is a condition of being lead by the Holy Spirit.


If you have found your bible, you might like to dust it off and try and prove me wrong.




JW



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To learn more please go to other posts related to...ORGANISATION ,

ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS

[JehovahsWitness]

And none of your explanations sits right with me.

And I should care, why?! My explanations are based on scripture. I have no concern with them "sitting right" with those that cannot disprove it with those same scripture. My commission is to speak truth not make anyone accept it.

[We_Are_VENOM]

He has. However, biblically divine guidance does not always result in instanteous understanding but is oftentime progressive in nature.

Wait a minute, so let me see if I got this straight...

So, lets say if there was a Biblical prophecy that Jehovah's Witnesses undeniably got right...of course, JW's will slightly brag and give any variation of "See, we are God's organization, the year is 1987, just as we predicted" (via the Bible, of course).

Soooo, if you get it correct, it is "Heyyy, all eyes on us. 1914, just as we accurately predicted".

But once you are proven to be wrong, now all of a sudden "Hey, everyone makes mistakes".

No. Not buying it.

The principle is clear, the path to understanding is like light gradually increasing at Dawn. Jesus implied a similar sentiment as he explicitly stated to his disciples he deliberatly withheld information because they simply were not ready to receive it at the time. If humans have at times second guessed, rushed ahead or made decisions in misplaced anticipation, God has not rejected them but corrected them and taught them the value of patience.

Sure, whatever you say

INSPIRED REVELATION OR SCRIPTURE BASED INTERPRETATION

People often confuse inspired revelation (such as when the Prophet Daniel explain Nebuchadnezzars dream) with divinly guided interpretation as is enjoyed by Gods people today. Inspired revelation, which often ended up as part of the infallible word of God, is God speaking through a Prophet or a visionary to explain a sign, dream or a prevous prophecy. Divinly guided interpretation, is not through direct revelation but rather through diligent study of Gods inspired word. Note the Amblified Bibles rendering of Daniel 12:4 ...

DANIEL 12:4

But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the scroll until the end of time. Many will go back and forth and search anxiously [through the scroll], and knowledge [of the purpose of God as revealed by His prophets] will [greatly] increase.”

The FOOTNOTE for the new world translation reads : Or “examine it [that is, the book] thoroughly.”

First off, I don't know the justification for the "and search anxiously through the scroll, and knowledge of the purpose of God as revealed by his prophets will greatly increase".

I don't know where that came from^, because in the Online Hebrew Interlinear, it simply reads..

Dan 4:12 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInt ... /dan12.pdf

As you can see, there is no added mumbo jumbo, which takes any unnecessary faulty context out of it.

Why did the angel tell Daniel that people would have to closely examine the words he had recorded if the understanding would be instantly revealed by inspired revelation?

But the angel didn't tell Daniel that, according to the Online Hebrew Interlinear.

CONCLUSION Jehovah's s Witnesses have never claimed to be the recipients of divinely inspired revelation. Their interpretation are based on their current understanding of scripture obtained through dilgeant study. They have always humbly waited on his holy spiriit to reveal to them if they were right or not.

God's chosen people should be divinely inspired...shouldn't they not? Or do you just keep giving false prophecy/predictions until you finally get one right, so you can slightly brag by saying "See, we are God's chosen, the year accurately predicted is XXXX, just as God's chosen organization predicted!!".

[We_Are_VENOM]

Indeed, you are free to expect anything you like, you can expect us to float 6 inches off the ground and hear angels sing whenever we start our cars. We on the other hand, are under no constaint to live up to unbiblical expectations. Infallibility is not a biblical requirement of Gods servant. Neither is refraining from "speculating" on the meaning of bible prophecy

Well apparently, my expectations are high for a group who calls themselves "God's chosen organization".

Your expectations are low, for this same group.

And there lies the contention.

[We_Are_VENOM]

They seem to be a list of men's names. Are you claiming each individual was an ORGANISATION ?

My contention is that individuals/organizations that are chosen by God doesn't give false predictions, and those men that I listed were men chosen by God, who didn't give false predictions.

In contrast to Jehovah's Witnesses.