If Christ is not risen

[Yolande]

Do you aree?

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

And if you believe He has was risen from the dead, where is He now?

And how is that supposed to make a difference in people's lives if He was?

“And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.�
     -1 Corinthians 15:14-19 (NKJV)

Please share your thoughts on these questions and also on the statement from Paul.

[Yolande]

To add to your comments:
If religion was like a personal relative preferance, like what is the most constructive time for a family together to spend a sunday afternoon, then by all means I would agree with Kayky.
But religion shouldn't be practiced because it is a nice cultural thing.
The one true God should be worshipped, in the way He wants it, and from a heart that witness with it as truth, in truthfulness..
And if God is misunderstood in some serious way, and one person sees another stumble, it is only the indifferent, uncaring, loveless person, that will pull up his shoulders, walk away, and say to himself, I guess it was just his/her personal choice.
The message of Christianity, of eternal hell or eternal glory, of judgement and reward, is indeed nothing to be taken up lightly, if one truly believes the message of the bible.

It is not loving to try to convert Jews to Christianity, Yolande.

I disagree. Are attempts to convert others to Christianity loving?

You should learn to respect the beliefs of others and not assume that what is right for you is right for everyone.

Is truth subjective?

God has been dealing with the Jews for a long time, and I think it is a huge mistake for you to interfere with that.

Why?

[kayky]

You should learn to respect the beliefs of others and not assume that what is right for you is right for everyone.

Is truth subjective?

The path to truth and how that truth is expressed are both completely subjective.

God has been dealing with the Jews for a long time, and I think it is a huge mistake for you to interfere with that.

Why?

Each person must walk the path that presents itself to him or her. You might be tempted to think, "Gosh, this is working so great for me--everyone should do it this way." I think that, not only is that wrong, it can actually detract someone from his or her truth path onto an unnecessary and painful detour.

[Yolande]

By bringing THE truth to somebody who is believing THEIR OWN TRUTH which is a lie,
you may cause him/her temporal discomfort, even religious persecution (for example for people from Islam),
but you will be instrumental of pulling him/her from eternal damnation.

Where your truth is not THE truth, it is a lie.

You should learn to respect the beliefs of others and not assume that what is right for you is right for everyone.

Is truth subjective?

The path to truth and how that truth is expressed are both completely subjective.

God has been dealing with the Jews for a long time, and I think it is a huge mistake for you to interfere with that.

Why?

Each person must walk the path that presents itself to him or her. You might be tempted to think, "Gosh, this is working so great for me--everyone should do it this way." I think that, not only is that wrong, it can actually detract someone from his or her truth path onto an unnecessary and painful detour.

[cnorman18]

As for your arguments I do not see how that proves Jesus not to be the Messiah, and some of your arguments are vague - like if what the Messianic age that hasn't begun.

I think that you missed the point that CNorman was making.

He has shown, rather conclusively, that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

He admits fully that Jesus may have been the Christian Messiah, but the Jesus described in the New Testament, did not fulfill the qualifications, ancient or modern, of Jewish messiahship.

Quite right. Thanks, McC.

Let's take his points one at a time then.

"Proof 1: The Messianic Age has not begun.

The most consistent tradition about the Jewish Messiah, and the only "prophecy" that carries any weight for Jews,
is that the advent of the Jewish Messiah is to coincide with the beginning of an age of perfect peace, justice, liberty and faith. That has not happened. Ergo, the Jewish Messiah has not yet arrived; ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

That alone is sufficient, but let's go on: "

1. To which scripture is he referring to and

2. What kind of peace, justice liberty and faith is scripture talking about.
(For example peace, Jesus is the prince of peace, for those who are in Him, but for others He is a rock of offense Romans 9:33.
His peace is not the worldly kind. Jesus himself said He did not come to bring that kind of peace, but the sword. Yet He is the Sabbath rest for those who abide in Him and the fruit of His Spirit is deep peace inside).

3. What time is there talking about (for Jesus is coming again)

That is why I am saying it is so vague.

And when done with this point, we can go to the next.

The peace, justice, liberty and faith spoken of in The Bible is the ordinary kind: you know, swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks, no more war. Justice and freedom under the administration of a literal earthly King. Like that. The OT is very consistent about those standards.

It's hard to reconcile that with a symbolic "peace in the believers hearts" interpretation.

Nothing have been proven to me, except that he is from his perspective sure Jesus is not the Messiah.

That was all I intended to prove. As I said, Jesus may have been the Christian Messiah, but he was not the Jewish Messiah.

I suspect that any discussion we have of my other points will fall into this same pattern: you will reiterate points of Christian belief, and I will reiterate that I have no objection to any Christian holding them, but that they are not Jewish beliefs.

That is not going to change.
Let me put this another way: Christians have been trying to convert us for two thousand years. There have always been a few Jews who crossed over (and a few Christians, like me, who have gone the other way); but we're still here. You are not going to change my mind, or any Jew's, with the arguments you're posting here. We've heard them before, and they don't impress us.

For starters, those who try to convert us don't understand the Jewish religion and argue against things that we don't believe, as Paul does - like our (nonexistent) obligation to perfectly fulfill all of the Law, that the Law brings death and not life, and is a burden and not a joy.

I think there are more worthwhile things to talk about. For the overwhelming majority of Jews, this subject has been closed for two millenia and is of no importance or interest. Jesus is no more on our minds than the Buddha.

[kayky]

To add to your comments:
If religion was like a personal relative preferance, like what is the most constructive time for a family together to spend a sunday afternoon, then by all means I would agree with Kayky.
But religion shouldn't be practiced because it is a nice cultural thing.
The one true God should be worshipped, in the way He wants it, and from a heart that witness with it as truth, in truthfulness..
And if God is misunderstood in some serious way, and one person sees another stumble, it is only the indifferent, uncaring, loveless person, that will pull up his shoulders, walk away, and say to himself, I guess it was just his/her personal choice.
The message of Christianity, of eternal hell or eternal glory, of judgement and reward, is indeed nothing to be taken up lightly, if one truly believes the message of the bible.

This is one of the BIGGEST problems of having an exclusivist view of Christianity. You may think Christianity is the ONLY way--but it is not. People are not offended by your stance because they necessarily find Christianity in and of itself offensive--
it is this intrusive interference and disrespect for the path of others that is so off-putting. What you don't realize, Yolande, is that I am just as convinced that I am on the path God intends for me as you are about your path. CNorman is just as convinced that being a Jew is right for him. McCulloch is just as convinced that being an atheist is right for him.

This doesn't preclude debate--it does preclude outright proselytising. This should only occur if someone asks you directly for spiritual advice. It should be quite apparent to you by now that you are making little headway with the folks you are debating here, and you are mainly just offending people. If you really trust God, it seems to me you would be less intrusive in your debating here and believe that God will send to you the questioning and ready heart. You may actually plant more seeds that way--even if you do not get to witness the "harvest." Stomping into the room in heavy combat boots is not always the best approach.

[kayky]

By bringing THE truth to somebody who is believing THEIR OWN TRUTH which is a lie,

What you don't seem to realize is this is exactly what you are doing. You are pushing your own personal truth onto others.

you may cause him/her temporal discomfort, even religious persecution (for example for people from Islam),but you will be instrumental of pulling him/her from eternal damnation.

You aren't just causing "temporal discomfort," Yolande. You are actually interferring in the "work" that God is already "performing" in that person's life. And it should be quite obvious to you by now that it doesn't work. So it seems to me that, if you're really concerned about the eternal destination of those you are debating, you would abandon an approach that at best is ineffectual and at worst is actually harming your cause and try other approaches that may be more effective.

Where your truth is not THE truth, it is a lie.

I don't think you are deliberately lying, Yolande. I just think that your belief system is based on a faulty understanding of the Bible.

[Yolande]

Success to me is not whether people convert, or cross over to what I present them.
But rather: am I loving God with all my heart, am I passionate about His ways and the people He love, about truth and about His glory and about godliness.
The life of the Christian is about loving God, and everything flows from that.
Anything done from any other platform than love for God, has little meaning in my view, if any.
Therefore, if people accept the seed of God's Word, or reject it, or let it lie dormant for many years, it is frankly not my job to convince any person of anything.
Only the Holy Spirit can do that (convict people).
But loving Him and loving those He loves, wholeheartedly, is what He called me to.
And that I live for. And for that I am prepared to die for.
For Christ is my life.

To add to your comments:
If religion was like a personal relative preferance, like what is the most constructive time for a family together to spend a sunday afternoon, then by all means I would agree with Kayky.
But religion shouldn't be practiced because it is a nice cultural thing.
The one true God should be worshipped, in the way He wants it, and from a heart that witness with it as truth, in truthfulness..
And if God is misunderstood in some serious way, and one person sees another stumble, it is only the indifferent, uncaring, loveless person, that will pull up his shoulders, walk away, and say to himself, I guess it was just his/her personal choice.
The message of Christianity, of eternal hell or eternal glory, of judgement and reward, is indeed nothing to be taken up lightly, if one truly believes the message of the bible.

This is one of the BIGGEST problems of having an exclusivist view of Christianity. You may think Christianity is the ONLY way--but it is not. People are not offended by your stance because they necessarily find Christianity in and of itself offensive--
it is this intrusive interference and disrespect for the path of others that is so off-putting. What you don't realize, Yolande, is that I am just as convinced that I am on the path God intends for me as you are about your path. CNorman is just as convinced that being a Jew is right for him. McCulloch is just as convinced that being an atheist is right for him.

This doesn't preclude debate--it does preclude outright proselytising. This should only occur if someone asks you directly for spiritual advice. It should be quite apparent to you by now that you are making little headway with the folks you are debating here, and you are mainly just offending people. If you really trust God, it seems to me you would be less intrusive in your debating here and believe that God will send to you the questioning and ready heart. You may actually plant more seeds that way--even if you do not get to witness the "harvest." Stomping into the room in heavy combat boots is not always the best approach.

[kayky]

I don't see any further point in debating this issue with you. So perhaps I'll see you elsewhere around the threads.

[TXatheist]

Where your truth is not THE truth, it is a lie.

You go too far, Yolande. Comments like that are counter productive to your goals as they insult and offend people. It seems to me that you believe so strongly in your own beliefs and condemn all other beliefs to such a level that you no longer respect other people's beliefs at all.

[Yolande]

If your beloved wife starts believing that doing heroin is going to make of her a more fulfilled and satisfied person. Will you respect her belief and leave it at that?

Where your truth is not THE truth, it is a lie.

You go too far, Yolande. Comments like that are counter productive to your goals as they insult and offend people. It seems to me that you believe so strongly in your own beliefs and condemn all other beliefs to such a level that you no longer respect other people's beliefs at all.