Colossians 2:9

[Wootah]

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Can anyone explain how Jesus isn't God in this verse please?

[Eloi]

An apple can not be full of appleness, that's ridiculous even to me (and my first language is Spanish), as much as thinking of God getting full of θεο�της (deity as a quality).

[Wootah]

An apple can not be full of appleness, that's ridiculous even to me (and my first language is Spanish), as much as thinking of God getting full of θεο�της (deity as a quality).

I think I misspelled in my last post.

If I have a box and ask you to guess what is inside but I will give you a clue.

Q: Inside the box is an object that is the whole fullness of an apple. 100% whatever an apple is that object in the box is the same. What is in the box?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 7 by myth-one.com]

It seems like a fair thing on my part to equate dwelling in with iis. Why isn't it?

For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

"Him" as used here refers to Jesus.

It doesn't state that Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead.

It does state that the fulness of the God house dwells in Jesus.

===========================================

The Holy Spirit dwelling in Christians is similar:

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit of God dwells in Christians.

But Christians are not Gods.

Does that make sense?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Wootah]

Jesus is not full of God, but full of a quality. God is Spirit; there is not a likeness we can compare Him, never seen by imperfect men. We could not have an idea of somebody who is is SO OUT of the material world, if we don't have a real reference. Jesus has bodily a quality of deity, a likeness of his Father so we can understand. It is like having a "Rossetta Stone" to understand a language that not human can understand.

It is the same reason Jesus is called with a name like The Word of God, something so personal, his Representation in the Universe, like Aaron to Moses when they went to Pharaoh. Nevertheless, that does NOT mean Jesus is God himself, or same as I said before, he could not be told to be full of something that would be proper of God ... I can NOT fill God with deity, since God is already God ... or is it God to be something that can be increased or decreased? ... the same way God can NOT be exalted ... there is nothing higher than God to rise Him to.

[tigger2]

Fulness:

The trinitarian argument that Col. 2:9 proves that Jesus is God overlooks the common understanding of "fulness of ..." and "filled with ..." by those who used those common phrases in New Testament times. For example, the person who became "filled with Holy Spirit" (Eph. 5:18) was greatly influenced by that spirit, but he certainly did not become the Holy Spirit.

And having "the fulness" of someone or something could similarly mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734.

Surely we wouldn’t expect anyone who is "filled with" God or who receives the "fulness of" God to actually be God! Nor would we expect anyone who has the "fulness of" Christ to actually be Christ! In fact it clearly shows that he is NOT the person or thing with which he is "filled"!

So, when we read Eph. 1:22,23 - "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all true Christians are actually Christ. The New Oxford Annotated Bible (1977) tells us in a footnote for this scripture:

"the Church, as the fulness of Christ, is the complement of his mystic [figurative] person; he is the head, the Church is his body."

Popular trinitarian NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up": "... (a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23 (‘all things in all the members’); ... in 3:19, of their being filled ... ‘with’ all the fulness of God….." - p. 426, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

Yes, at Eph. 3:19 we actually see Paul expressing the thought "that you [Ephesian Christians] may be filled with all the fulness of God" - RSV, KJV, etc. And at Eph. 4:13 we find - "until we all attain ... to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" - RSV.

Even the trinitarian reference work, the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, commenting about the word "fullness" at Col. 2:9 ("In his [Jesus’] body lives the fullness of divinity" - JB), tells us:

"this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-[19] is entirely related to Christ’s cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, Zondervan, 1986. - See AT, CBW, NAB (especially 1991 ed.).

"Outside the NT the word occurs in Ignatius in a sense which is clearly influenced by the NT, and apparently in the meaning of the Divine fulness, as going forth and blessing and residing ["dwelling"] in the Church [the congregation]" - p. 1, Vol. 4, A Dictionary of the Bible, James Hastings, ed., Hendrickson Publ., 1988.

For exactly the same reasons that we don’t allow such figurative language to persuade us that all true Christians actually are (or may become) God or Christ, we should not let it persuade us that Christ is actually God!

The Bible tells us how essential to eternal life it is to know God and Jesus (John 17:3 and 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). Therefore, if one "knows" Jesus as God and "knows" God as three (or two) persons and such "knowledge" turns out to be false, then he is not on the road to eternal life!

And as we saw above, if Christians can be "filled with" God and receive the "fulness of" God, we know by this very wording that they are not God! And we know that those Christians who had the "fulness of" Christ could not actually be Christ! The very wording itself shows that someone else is "filling" (or influencing) the person who is being "filled" (influenced). In fact it clearly shows that he CANNOT be the person (or thing) with whom he is "filled"!

Therefore, those Christians who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of God are not God! Those Christians who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of Christ are not Christ! Those men and women who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of the Holy Spirit are not the Holy Spirit!! And even if we interpret Col. 2:9 as meaning that Christ has the fullness of "Godhood" in him, it still cannot mean Christ is God!!

[tigger2]

Fulness:

The trinitarian argument that Col. 2:9 proves that Jesus is God overlooks the common understanding of "fulness of ..." and "filled with ..." by those who used those common phrases in New Testament times. For example, the person who became "filled with Holy Spirit" (Eph. 5:18) was greatly influenced by that spirit, but he certainly did not become the Holy Spirit.

And having "the fulness" of someone or something could similarly mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734.

Surely we wouldn’t expect anyone who is "filled with" God or who receives the "fulness of" God to actually be God! Nor would we expect anyone who has the "fulness of" Christ to actually be Christ! In fact it clearly shows that he is NOT the person or thing with which he is "filled"!

So, when we read Eph. 1:22,23 - "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all true Christians are actually Christ. The New Oxford Annotated Bible (1977) tells us in a footnote for this scripture:

"the Church, as the fulness of Christ, is the complement of his mystic [figurative] person; he is the head, the Church is his body."

Popular trinitarian NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up": "... (a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23 (‘all things in all the members’); ... in 3:19, of their being filled ... ‘with’ all the fulness of God….." - p. 426, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

Yes, at Eph. 3:19 we actually see Paul expressing the thought "that you [Ephesian Christians] may be filled with all the fulness of God" - RSV, KJV, etc. And at Eph. 4:13 we find - "until we all attain ... to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" - RSV.

Even the trinitarian reference work, the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, commenting about the word "fullness" at Col. 2:9 ("In his [Jesus’] body lives the fullness of divinity" - JB), tells us:

"this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-[19] is entirely related to Christ’s cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, Zondervan, 1986. - See AT, CBW, NAB (especially 1991 ed.).

"Outside the NT the word occurs in Ignatius in a sense which is clearly influenced by the NT, and apparently in the meaning of the Divine fulness, as going forth and blessing and residing ["dwelling"] in the Church [the congregation]" - p. 1, Vol. 4, A Dictionary of the Bible, James Hastings, ed., Hendrickson Publ., 1988.

For exactly the same reasons that we don’t allow such figurative language to persuade us that all true Christians actually are (or may become) God or Christ, we should not let it persuade us that Christ is actually God!

The Bible tells us how essential to eternal life it is to know God and Jesus (John 17:3 and 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). Therefore, if one "knows" Jesus as God and "knows" God as three (or two) persons and such "knowledge" turns out to be false, then he is not on the road to eternal life!

And as we saw above, if Christians can be "filled with" God and receive the "fulness of" God, we know by this very wording that they are not God! And we know that those Christians who had the "fulness of" Christ could not actually be Christ! The very wording itself shows that someone else is "filling" (or influencing) the person who is being "filled" (influenced). In fact it clearly shows that he CANNOT be the person (or thing) with whom he is "filled"!

Therefore, those Christians who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of God are not God! Those Christians who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of Christ are not Christ! Those men and women who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of the Holy Spirit are not the Holy Spirit!! And even if we interpret Col. 2:9 as meaning that Christ has the fullness of "Godhood" in him, it still cannot mean Christ is God!!

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

So for you the Holy Spirit is God?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

So for you the Holy Spirit is God?

God is a Spirit:

[Avoice]

This reminds me of much of the Christian testament. Speaking with an aire of authority. Sounding real official... glorious almost. But it's a bunch of moosh. Christian just read it and are captivated by it. Ask them to explain it and they really can't say. But from it they believe.

[Wootah]

This reminds me of much of the Christian testament. Speaking with an aire of authority. Sounding real official... glorious almost. But it's a bunch of moosh. Christian just read it and are captivated by it. Ask them to explain it and they really can't say. But from it they believe.

Don't worry I have you in mind. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah will be the theme of a bunch of threads soon .

It's mostly my Bible reading and also sermons that bring up these topics. I read something and I wonder how are they going to deny this so I post it to see.