Atheists in the Pulpit

[shnarkle]

There was a study done some years ago showing how many atheists were attending seminary and going on to pastor Christian churches. I can't find it anymore, but did locate one showing that 17% of pastors in Denmark, or Sweden were atheists. The thing I found intriguing wasn't just that they found the job spiritually or financially rewarding, but that so many of their congregation accepted them. This isn't the case everywhere. In some cases, a congregation can dwindle by two thirds as in a well known case up in Toronto Canada.

It seems to be catching on with the progressive Christians. I spent some time monitoring a progressive website after reading a few of Jack Spong's latest books. His writing would lead most conservative or fundamentalist Christians to believe he's an avowed atheist, and yet he's quite tame in comparison to most.

Thirty years ago I would have thought this to be one of the most ridiculous ideas imaginable, but today it not only doesn't surprise me, I applaud atheists and Christians alike for accepting people regardless of these arbitrary labels.

The New Testament seems to be full of examples of heretics, unbelievers, etc. who Jesus not only accepts, but spotlights them for their supreme faith, and love. Perhaps if Jesus were alive today, he would present the Parable of the Good atheist to convict and turn the stubborn-hearted from their ways.

If the message is essentially the same, I don't really see a problem. I also think that the atheist's ability to get beyond the superficial aspects of Christianity, i.e. the long dead doctrines that seem to only sap the life from a church, and get to the message puts them at a distinct advantage. Ultimately, it's just a pointless label.

What do you think?

Should atheists be allowed to pastor churches?

https://www.ifyc.org/content/why-atheist-going-seminary

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... rch-canada

https://owlcation.com/misc/Atheists-in- ... the-Clergy

https://progressingspirit.com/

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

Interesting... ties in with a post I wrote I another thread.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 597#971597

I personally don't see any problem as long as (as in the case of the Canadian Minister) they are up front about their beliefs or lack thereof.

One link you provided is speaking of clergy that have lost their faith and contemplating leaving their posts .... I can't see any problem with that either, if again they are honest with their congregation so they can make an informed decision as to whether they want to attend that church or not. In either case it reinforces the need to be vigilant as to who is teaching you and what they are saying. I personally wouldn't be surprised if there was a concerted movement to infiltrate the churches and religious movemments with certain ideologies but I am a hopeless conspiracy theorist ...


JW

I put those other links in to show that there aren't just atheists who want to remain pastors, but also pastors who have fallen away from the faith and are now atheists. Richard Dawkins even has some sort of program to help pastors transition from believers to non believers.

Seminaries and schools of theology are now teaching more on the origins and development of the gospels which was within the synagogues for quite some time. They are being viewed as more of a liturgical narrative than a historical one. Numerous pastors of multiple denominations are latching on to these themes without pointing out this fact. However, there are some who are pointing out this fact with mixed results. Atheist or progressive pastors seem to be at the forefront of this movement.

They are progressing... towards what is a matter of debate. In any case I do believe the world is moving towards more and more godless religious movements. If God exists He'll let them all know His feelings on the matter in due time.



JW

[shnarkle]

It amazes me how these so called "atheists" and unbelievers just keep insisting on concerning themselves with things related to religion, and in this case, churches.

Same thing on this forum...these so called "atheists" are arguing for/against the Trinity doctrine, even more so than believers are.

It blows my mind...like, why do you care?

Probably for the same reason you're posting on this topic about atheists. Why does it bother you so much that atheists are becoming engaged in church activities? As I pointed out earlier, if Jesus were around today, his updated version of the Good Samaritan would have probably been referred to as "The Good Atheist".

[shnarkle]

Seminaries and schools of theology are now teaching more on the origins and development of the gospels which was within the synagogues for quite some time. They are being viewed as more of a liturgical narrative than a historical one. Numerous pastors of multiple denominations are latching on to these themes without pointing out this fact. However, there are some who are pointing out this fact with mixed results. Atheist or progressive pastors seem to be at the forefront of this movement.

They are progressing... towards what is a matter of debate.

Well, yes and no. It isn't debatable for those who have no knowledge of these quite obvious facts. However, one of the side effects is that these atheists are able to see something the theist is, for the most part; oblivious to, which is that your ideas of God are just that; ideas. The atheists are able to get beyond the ideas to see what's behind them while most theists can't disconnect from their precious doctrines which are more important than living an abundant life. Again, Christ's example of the Good Atheist should be a potent reminder of the fact that Christ knows who are his by the fruit they produce, not the dead doctrines they profess.

In any case I do believe the world is moving towards more and more godless religious movements

Paul pointed to it in his day as "the mystery of iniquity" which was undoubtedly the initial movement of religion entering into the church.

[Tcg]

It amazes me how these so called "atheists" and unbelievers just keep insisting on concerning themselves with things related to religion, and in this case, churches.

Why shouldn't we be. So called "theists" and believers just keep insisting on concerning themselves with atheists and atheism.

Same thing on this forum...these so called "atheists" are arguing for/against the Trinity doctrine, even more so than believers are.

Same thing on this forum....so called "theists" are arguing for/against the reality that atheists truly lack belief.

It blows my mind...like, why do you care?

For the same reason you care about so called "atheists" I suppose.



Tcg

[For_The_Kingdom]

Probably for the same reason you're posting on this topic about atheists.

Um, but the topic isn't just about atheists, is it? It is about atheists, pertaining to them preaching in churches.. something of which I am invested in (from afar).

Why does it bother you so much that atheists are becoming engaged in church activities?

Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. If you find the existence of God so make-believe and fairy taley, then why are you wasting time, effort& energy by using church platforms for whatever ungodly reason or justification that you may have.

I am not a fan of the Star Wars franchise, so you can bet your last dollar that you won't find me at any Star Wars expo, press conference, comic con, or any other event related to the franchise.

You won't find me in any Star Wars chat room or message forums debating about anything related to it. Why? Because I truly don't care...and my lack of presence at the events and/or lack of desire to talk about the franchise reflects the fact that I don't care.

In other words; if you don't care, act like it.

As I pointed out earlier, if Jesus were around today, his updated version of the Good Samaritan would have probably been referred to as "The Good Atheist".

If you don't believe in Jesus, why care?

[For_The_Kingdom]

Why shouldn't we be. So called "theists" and believers just keep insisting on concerning themselves with atheists and atheism.

Not quite true. Most Christians on here, from what I gather, are apologists for the Christian faith (or whatever religion that they rock).

And what is an Apologist? An "apology" is a Greek word for "defense", which makes an Apologist a DEFENDER..which makes a Christian Apologist a defender of the Christian faith.

So Christians, we don't really concern ourselves with atheists, unless we are defending our faith AGAINST them.

Same thing on this forum...these so called "atheists" are arguing for/against the Trinity doctrine, even more so than believers are.

For the same reason you care about so called "atheists" I suppose.

Um, define "care" lol.

[Tcg]

You won't find me in any Star Wars chat room or message forums debating about anything related to it.

You also are unlikely to encounter a Star Wars fan condemning you to hell for not enjoying science fiction of any kind. On the other hand, I can't count the number of Christians who have threatened me with hell simply because I don't buy the God story.

I've also been accused of being morally bankrupt because I favor human life over other forms of animal life. It is necessary to point out the absurdity of these claims.


Tcg

[For_The_Kingdom]

You also are unlikely to encounter a Star Wars fan condemning you to hell for not enjoying science fiction of any kind. On the other hand, I can't count the number of Christians who have threatened me with hell simply because I don't buy the God story.

Ohh, so Christians are condemning you to a fairy taley place..a place of which, according to YOU, doesn't exist. Which would be similar to you being "threaten" to be shot, execution-style, with an imaginary gun.

Again, I ask..why do you care?

I've also been accused of being morally bankrupt because I favor human life over other forms of animal life. It is necessary to point out the absurdity of these claims.

Tcg

White supremacists "favor" Caucasian life over other human/animal life. Hmmm.

[shnarkle]

the topic isn't just about atheists, is it? It is about atheists, pertaining to them preaching in churches.. something of which I am invested in (from afar).

At least you're honest enough to point out that your "investment" isn't exactly an immediate one. Perhaps it's as far away as an atheists interest in the trinity is to you? In that case, there is no real investment.

Why does it bother you so much that atheists are becoming engaged in church activities?

Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk.

I am. Walking the walk means to proclaim the gospel message to anyone and everyone in the whole world. When Christ's own disciples returned from their wanderings, they informed Christ that they had run into some people casting out demons in Christ's name, but they stopped them from doing this simply because they didn't know who they were. You not only don't know any of these pastors, you have no idea what they're saying. And this is your idea of walking the walk; passing judgement on others you don't know and have no idea what they're saying?

If you find the existence of God so make-believe and fairy taley,

Strawman argument.

then why are you wasting time, effort& energy by using church platforms for whatever ungodly reason or justification that you may have.

Looks like I hit yet another nerve. I can assure you, I am in no way wasting my time, efforts or energy, nor am I using Church platforms for any ungodly reason. Again, you have nothing to base this upon other than your own increasingly wild and uncontrollable imagination. Self control is a virtue that some might benefit from if they could simply listen to the gospel without prejudicial labeling of people they've never met.

I am not a fan of the Star Wars franchise, so you can bet your last dollar that you won't find me at any Star Wars expo, press conference, comic con, or any other event related to the franchise.

And yet you obviously know significantly more about these things than I do which only spotlights your interest in them.

You won't find me in any Star Wars chat room or message forums debating about anything related to it. Why? Because I truly don't care...and my lack of presence at the events and/or lack of desire to talk about the franchise reflects the fact that I don't care.

The irony here is in you not noting the fact that you're the only one talking about these things, and the only one who keeps bringing them up.

In other words; if you don't care, act like it.

But I do care. I'm not the one who is claiming I don't care. You're the one who is ranting and raving about how great Star Wars exhibitions and chats etc. are. You're one who keeps droning on about Star Wars, atheists, etc. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be referring to these things in the first place. There are hundreds of millions of people who don't care, and they act like it by never joining into this conversation. That's how one acts when they truly don't care. You not only care, you're obsessed to the point of what appears to be a nervous breakdown. An atheist would probably suggest you take a break and try to get centered, and connected with whatever ideas you may have that you associate with God.

As I pointed out earlier, if Jesus were around today, his updated version of the Good Samaritan would have probably been referred to as "The Good Atheist".

If you don't believe in Jesus, why care?

I believe what Jesus says. Despite your protestations to the contrary, your continued replies only spotlight the fact that you're incapable of not caring. So on the one hand, I'm flattered that you care so much, and on the other, it's disheartening to see how so much caring is also associated with so much contempt for others who not only care, but are searching for the truth. When someone points out that they're searching for the truth, and that search is met with contempt and incredulity, it makes one wonder why they would even want to be associated with Christianity in the first place. One doesn't need to be a Christian to be incredulous or contemptuous to others searching for the truth.

There's only one way, but we don't all begin that journey from the same point. Christ didn't die for the righteous, but for sinners, and wayward atheists. When a wayward atheist finds their way into a Christian church and their search for the truth is rewarded with fellowship from fellow Christians, it is amazing how bent out of shape some people can get over people welcoming someone into their congregation.

God created all humanity in his image, not just those who profess certain doctrines to be accepted in a particular church that doesn't want to fellowship with anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they do. Christ points out that as long as you do it to the least of his brethren, you do it to him, and I'm not sure one can get more "least" than as an atheist.

[For_The_Kingdom]

At least you're honest enough to point out that your "investment" isn't exactly an immediate one. Perhaps it's as far away as an atheists interest in the trinity is to you? In that case, there is no real investment.

Well, I am "playing" the game, I am just not "all the way in". Still an investment, nevertheless.

I am. Walking the walk means to proclaim the gospel message to anyone and everyone in the whole world. When Christ's own disciples returned from their wanderings, they informed Christ that they had run into some people casting out demons in Christ's name, but they stopped them from doing this simply because they didn't know who they were. You not only don't know any of these pastors, you have no idea what they're saying. And this is your idea of walking the walk; passing judgement on others you don't know and have no idea what they're saying?

Well, these "pastors" according to you, are atheists. What more do I need to know? The title of this thread tells me all I need to know.

If you find the existence of God so make-believe and fairy taley,

Strawman argument.

No strawman, because I am not necessarily talking about "you" personally, but more in general as it pertains to the "atheists" in question who are at the pulpit.

Looks like I hit yet another nerve. I can assure you, I am in no way wasting my time, efforts or energy, nor am I using Church platforms for any ungodly reason.

Um, when I said "ungodly", it was in the sense of atheists (who claim that there is no god), of whom cannot possibly be using the pulpit for "godly" reasons...based on the fact that THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD.

Makes sense now?

Again, you have nothing to base this upon other than your own increasingly wild and uncontrollable imagination. Self control is a virtue that some might benefit from if they could simply listen to the gospel without prejudicial labeling of people they've never met.

Again, I am talking about atheists in the pulpit..I don't know what you are talking about.

And yet you obviously know significantly more about these things than I do which only spotlights your interest in them.

Bruh, I am not TALKING ABOUT YOU..I am talking about the athei..

Never mind..

The irony here is in you not noting the fact that you're the only one talking about these things, and the only one who keeps bringing them up.

I only brought it up to analogize what it means to truly not care about something..a concept that "atheists in the pulpit" doesn't seem to understand.

But I do care. I'm not the one who is claiming I don't care. You're the one who is ranting and raving about how great Star Wars exhibitions and chats etc. are. You're one who keeps droning on about Star Wars, atheists, etc. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be referring to these things in the first place. There are hundreds of millions of people who don't care, and they act like it by never joining into this conversation. That's how one acts when they truly don't care. You not only care, you're obsessed to the point of what appears to be a nervous breakdown. An atheist would probably suggest you take a break and try to get centered, and connected with whatever ideas you may have that you associate with God.

The whole point was that atheists shouldn't care...just like I don't care about Star Wars. SMH.

I believe what Jesus says. Despite your protestations to the contrary, your continued replies only spotlight the fact that you're incapable of not caring. So on the one hand, I'm flattered that you care so much, and on the other, it's disheartening to see how so much caring is also associated with so much contempt for others who not only care, but are searching for the truth. When someone points out that they're searching for the truth, and that search is met with contempt and incredulity, it makes one wonder why they would even want to be associated with Christianity in the first place. One doesn't need to be a Christian to be incredulous or contemptuous to others searching for the truth.

Jesus IS the truth.

There's only one way, but we don't all begin that journey from the same point. Christ didn't die for the righteous, but for sinners, and wayward atheists. When a wayward atheist finds their way into a Christian church and their search for the truth is rewarded with fellowship from fellow Christians, it is amazing how bent out of shape some people can get over people welcoming someone into their congregation.

An atheist finding Christ is a beautiful thing, isn't it? Just keep him out of the pulpit until he does, though.

God created all humanity in his image, not just those who profess certain doctrines to be accepted in a particular church that doesn't want to fellowship with anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they do. Christ points out that as long as you do it to the least of his brethren, you do it to him, and I'm not sure one can get more "least" than as an atheist.

All of those that are the "least" of his brethren are all believers...so, this "least" in question is quite "qualitative".

No, atheists aren't getting in..according to John 3:16.