The Holy Spirit gave us correct hermeneutics.

[postroad]

That's the gist of what I'm getting from an individual in my conversation with him.

It sounds very scientific. By following the proper rules of interpretation the correct understanding of Scriptures should always result.

So why isn't there a consistent product if there exists a fail proof formula.

I wonder what spirits those with a perverted understanding of Christ have?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

Which would make many wrong believing individuals outside of the JW blinded by their own defects in character?

[ElCodeMonkey]

The fact that you are attempting it makes me wonder about your own integrity.

Moderator Comment
Do not call into question another person's integrity.

Please review the Rules.


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Code: Select all

[ElCodeMonkey]

It's funny how this type of evasive language always surfaces when I'm in conversation with any of the "restored" type of believers.

If I'm conversing with an LDS, SDA, JW, or any of the more recent Church of Christ in various configurations etc I can be certain that they will attempt to deflect direct questions with sneaky word play.

Moderator Comment
Please keep your comments on the debates and not on the people or with sweeping statements of groups. This is devolving into personal attacks.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 5 by postroad"

I grew up in a conservative church family with multiple connections to the ministry. I have seen the inner workings of church politics and hierarchy and congregational disputes.

You're not going to be able to pull any concept of unity over on me. The fact that you are attempting it makes me wonder about your own integrity.

Basing an analysis on actual firsthand knowledge shouldn't draw anyone's integrity into question. You also seem to be arguing from the specific to the general, which is a no-no.

Your experience is helping you paint all of Christian church life across the board with the broad brush of your specific experience. I don't discount in any way what you've witnessed firsthand. I question it is the norm.

Everyone has the responsibility to put into practice the things being taught. The fact that many people you've seen let the flesh get the best of them doesn't nullify that unity can be found as normal.

My contribution is that the topic of the OP happens in more places and among more people than your experience appears to dictate.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 14 by mrhagerty]

Why would you question if it's the norm? The NT gives witness that it was always the norm.
Shelves full of books have been written acknowledgeing the fact and how the ministerial can stave off personal meltdowns. This forum testifies that it is the norm.

Come on! There are scores of beliefs systems represented here. Many including yourself promoting an exclusive correct understanding through the Spirit.

That must make a whole bunch representatives of the antichrist? Although inexplicably it's only myself who is instructed to submit to the correct Spirit?

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 15 by postroad"

Why would you question if it's the norm? The NT gives witness that it was always the norm.

The NT expects unity. In keeping with it, the NT provides guidance on how to maintain that unity. It does NOT tell believers the norm will be confusion.

Why would I question your experience as representing the norm? Three reasons: 1) The NT expects unity, 2) My own observations align with the expectations of NT unity, 3) your experience is a microcosm of the broader church experience.

Shelves full of books have been written acknowledgeing the fact and how the ministerial can stave off personal meltdowns. This forum testifies that it is the norm.

Are you arguing that the shelves of books testify that it's wrong to expect that the unity exhorted in the NT will work?

Come on! There are scores of beliefs systems represented here. Many including yourself promoting an exclusive correct understanding through the Spirit.

Sorry, but I would never take the mix of folks here as a better example of how unity will actually play out. This place is heavily biased in specific directions.

That it represents a cross-section of Christian experience is a myth. Most of the threads here are not about sharing unique experiences among Christian believers, but an attempt in almost every thread and post to show what a failure Christianity has been, and gleefully so. That's hardly a testimony of how Christians behave with one another, but a testimony of what Jesus predicted: "Before the world hated you, it hated Me."

Although inexplicably it's only myself who is instructed to submit to the correct Spirit?

Would you submit to a Spirit who dwells in the midst of a community that does practice unity? Or would your presupposition about lack of unity cause you to label it as an aberration?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 16 by mrhagerty]

You keep flogging a concept of unity that simply never materialized. That might work for the average biblically ignorant Christian but why attempt it on me? The testimony is there for anyone to read for themselves.

It's was so self evident that it had to written in as a prophecy and mission statement.


Luke 12:49-53 New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.�

Matthew 10:34-36 New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]

Which would make Jesus, Satan according to the original text. Because God used evil spirits of confusion to punish Israel. The Holy Spirit was for blessing them. If Jesus true mission after supposedly bearing the penalty for sin was still a Spirit of confusion then indeed the Jews would have been required to wait for the true Lord.

Micah 7:7 New International Version (NIV)

7 But as for me, I watch in hope for the Lord,
I wait for God my Savior;
my God will hear me.





https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV


Why would God send the Messiah as a spirit of confusion and as a human sacrifice after condemning the practice only a few verses earlier?

Micah 6:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

6 With what shall I come before the Lord
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.

Jesus had claimed to bring about the new covenant of God given unity through the Spirit and yet he identified his true mission to be the spirit of confusion and punishment.

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 16 by postroad"

Luke 12:49-53 New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! . . No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other,

Sorry but this doesn't wash. This is what comes of cherry-picking verses that say what you've already decided to say. The division spoken of here is NOT between believers, but between believers and their UNBELIEVING family members.

Jewish converts to Christianity will be dis-owned by their parents and kin. This is NOT a prediction of disunity across the church.

Why would God send the Messiah as a spirit of confusion and as a human sacrifice after condemning the practice only a few verses earlier?

The sacrifices were not the same as the punishment due for sin. Originally, the payment due was the life. "the soul that sinneth it shall die."

Substitution of animals was allowed until the One Payment for sin could be accomplished. These were always seen as a postponement of what was due for man's sin. Hebrews clearly states the blood of goats and bulls could never take away sins. Because they served only as a postponement.

God did not allow the Jews to use humans as these sacrifices, because humans would mean final payment for sin and there was only One coming who would do that

Jesus was not the same as an animal sacrifice, but was the payment for sin. This also explains the meaning of Micah you referenced, why offering a son by a worshiper would not work.

Jesus had claimed to bring about the new covenant of God given unity through the Spirit and yet he identified his true mission to be the spirit of confusion and punishment.

Absolutely. But not the confusion and disunity you're trying to prove here. The confusion and discord is with the world. "Before the world hated you, it hated Me."

[postroad]

[Replying to post 18 by mrhagerty]

The text Jesus quoted is directly linked to the spirit of confusion sent as s punishment.
Immediately afterward the text indicates that the the author wasn't accepting that spirit for salvation but rather waiting patiently for his salvation through the the Lord.

Again you are claiming a unity of believers that simply didn't exist. Claiming it doesn't make it so. They were deeply divided as both history and the NT show.

[Tcg]

So why isn't there a consistent product if there exists a fail proof formula.

There seems to be as many Holy Spirits as there are people interpreting the Bible.

If there were only one, consistency would be unavoidable.