Moderator: Moderators
vs.If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Good points, but notice Paul's formula for salvation says nothing about doing the will fo the Father, Jesus statement, does. Their relative theology seems to be at odds.The Tanager wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
I don't think they contradict. To me Romans 10:9 seems to be talking about putting your belief/trust in Jesus who was raised from the dead as the Lord over your life. The context in Matthew 7 (and 25) seems to be about people who call themselves Jesus' followers, but really aren't. They are saying they have Jesus as Lord, but they aren't doing God's will. They claim to do things in Jesus' name, but they don't know Jesus, so how could they really do it in Jesus' name? They are doing their own thing and stamping Jesus' name on it like it's magic. Matthew's context doesn't say anything about those who don't consider Jesus to be their Lord.
His formula in Romans 10:9 doesn't say that because he's not addressing that issue. Paul is critiquing those who "seek to establish their own [righteousness]" (verse 3), rather than taking God's plan, which is to trust in Jesus as our Lord. We are to live life in concert with Jesus, and the good behavior will come as a result of that; rather than the other way round. In many of Paul's letters he first talks about the Gospel and then in the second part of the letter show how it affects our daily lives.Elijah John wrote:Good points, but notice Paul's formula for salvation says nothing about doing the will fo the Father, Jesus statement, does. Their relative theology seems to be at odds.
Paul's method of "good behavior" is to serve God by keeping the law of God with "my mind", but on the other hand, keep the "law of sin" with "my flesh".(Romans 7:25). The guy is the epitome of hypocrisy, and that is why Yeshua said to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees".The Tanager wrote:His formula in Romans 10:9 doesn't say that because he's not addressing that issue. Paul is critiquing those who "seek to establish their own [righteousness]" (verse 3), rather than taking God's plan, which is to trust in Jesus as our Lord. We are to live life in concert with Jesus, and the good behavior will come as a result of that; rather than the other way round. In many of Paul's letters he first talks about the Gospel and then in the second part of the letter show how it affects our daily lives.Elijah John wrote:Good points, but notice Paul's formula for salvation says nothing about doing the will fo the Father, Jesus statement, does. Their relative theology seems to be at odds.
Paul addresses doing the will of the Father in the second half of many of his letters. Being a living sacrifice in Romans 12 and following. 1 Corinthians 6. Galatians 5. Others.
Maybe I'm missing your point, but if not I don't see how you get that interpretation. Paul is admitting to the power of sin over his desires to serve God. He's at war within himself and asks who will rescue him. It's God that delivers us from our flesh, Paul says, through Jesus. Paul then continues (in chapter 8) to say that Jesus sets us free from our flesh in a way that having the Law could never do. Jesus makes it so that we can live by the Spirit, not the flesh. He talks over some other things and then talks about offering your bodies as a living sacrifice in view of God's mercy to you (chapter 12). To find what God's will is and live it out.showme wrote:Paul's method of "good behavior" is to serve God by keeping the law of God with "my mind", but on the other hand, keep the "law of sin" with "my flesh".(Romans 7:25). The guy is the epitome of hypocrisy, and that is why Yeshua said to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees".
There is nothing to interpret. Paul says what he says. As an example, the pope, a Catholic, quotes Romans 7:20 when he recounts stealing a cross from his confessor, and Bill Clinton, a Protestant, quoted Romans 7:17 for his acts. Which verse do you quote? Romans 7:14-25:The Tanager wrote:Maybe I'm missing your point, but if not I don't see how you get that interpretation. Paul is admitting to the power of sin over his desires to serve God. He's at war within himself and asks who will rescue him. It's God that delivers us from our flesh, Paul says, through Jesus. Paul then continues (in chapter 8) to say that Jesus sets us free from our flesh in a way that having the Law could never do. Jesus makes it so that we can live by the Spirit, not the flesh. He talks over some other things and then talks about offering your bodies as a living sacrifice in view of God's mercy to you (chapter 12). To find what God's will is and live it out.showme wrote:Paul's method of "good behavior" is to serve God by keeping the law of God with "my mind", but on the other hand, keep the "law of sin" with "my flesh".(Romans 7:25). The guy is the epitome of hypocrisy, and that is why Yeshua said to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees".
Apparently Paul nor "us" have the "power of the Spirit". Maybe you took a left hand turn when you should have taken a right hand turn.The Tanager wrote: [Replying to post 15 by showme]
Yes, in 7:25, Paul is talking about the battle that occurs even after one becomes a Christian. You still mess up, but (8:1) there is no condemnation for you. We don't live by our mind or our flesh, but the Spirit. We want to do God's law/will, but our flesh makes it too hard for us, so we need the power of the Spirit.
What do you make of 1 John 1:8 and 2:1-2?showme wrote:Apparently Paul nor "us" have the "power of the Spirit". Maybe you took a left hand turn when you should have taken a right hand turn.
If you look carefully at 1 John 3:8, you will find that those who sin, are the sons of the devil, and those who are unable to sin, are the sons of God. To be a son of God, one must be born of God. And the seed must abide in him. I think what abides in the "many" is the tare seed, which is the seed of "lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23) & Matthew 13:41)
Yes they are in agreement. To believe in your heart would mean that you would certainly accept all of what Jesus taught! And he taught that we must DO the will of the Father.Elijah John wrote: Romans 10.9
vs.If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Matthew 7.21
Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
I would Add 2: 3-7 to those listed. Also add Paul's testimony in Act 24:14 and Peter's support of Paul's teaching Law and prophets in 2 Peter 3:14-17The Tanager wrote:What do you make of 1 John 1:8 and 2:1-2?showme wrote:Apparently Paul nor "us" have the "power of the Spirit". Maybe you took a left hand turn when you should have taken a right hand turn.
If you look carefully at 1 John 3:8, you will find that those who sin, are the sons of the devil, and those who are unable to sin, are the sons of God. To be a son of God, one must be born of God. And the seed must abide in him. I think what abides in the "many" is the tare seed, which is the seed of "lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23) & Matthew 13:41)
