"a standard of perfection that we cannot keep"

[Elijah John]

TBN preacher this morning said the reason the Law was given was to give us a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep" and to show us our need for a savior.

His statement is in accord with Pauline, NT theology. But is this really the purpose of the Law? The "original intent" of Moses, the lawgiver? (or God through Moses).

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

Is Paul's theology on this matter a bit of revisionism?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

Aside: I Tim 1:8 Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it legitimately. 9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful...(etc): yet the law, the first command on earth, was given to Adam and Eve supposedly when they were righteous in their innocence, not lawless and rebellious....funny that, eh?

This is an interesting point. Although, I'm not sure how this works with Paul's claim that Christ came under the law unless he means rebelious flesh. It still seems problematic in that he never sinned, and I'm not sure that was even a possibility; not just for Christ, but the new creature as well.

The problem resolves itself if the "law" referred to here is "that which was added because of transgressions". Then there is no need for any confusing explanations as the lawless are the only one's who can transgress the law, and are the only one's who need a sacrificial system in the first place.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 4 by ElCodeMonkey]

and clarified that God did not want sacrifice just like all the other prophets.

He didn't want what precipitated the need for sacrifice, i.e. sin. He never would have told the healed lepers to have it documented by the priests as this necessarily would have required a sacrifice on their part.

God wants us to follow the commandments and to be good. He never said we have to be perfect at it,

Actually God insures that one does keep it perfectly as this is the only way God would have it when he creates "sons" to keep his law.

to desire and hope for goodness to show that we are his people.

This is the method utilized in the Old Testament, but Paul points out that simply wanting to please God will never be enough. Nothing less than the faith of Christ will suffice, and that can only be given by God.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

The purpose of the law was to keep the line of Abraham healthy, alive and clean in the way of correct worship. It was made to keep a promise to Abraham that from his line would come a savior for all mankind. Yet was it's sole purpose to so a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep"? No. If it's main purpose was to show what was the standard for human perfection, then slavery and polygamy certainly wouldn't have been allowed.

Slavery was a fact of life, so to ignore the plight of the slave would have been a grave sin. A Jew was probably the best chance a pagan slave had at freedom. Comparing the life of a Jewish slave with that of a pagan slave was in itself a 'no-brainer'. God doesn't call his people to disregard the laws of those around them so a Jew would have to purchase a slave to free them. The Mosaic law meets us where we are, and Paul points out that we're all enslaved to sin, therefore we must be purchased in order to be freed.

Likewise, in a world where there weren't enough men to take care of the women, a man who had the wherewithal to support more than one wife, could then take care of women who wouldn't otherwise have had a chance at a decent life.

Everyone who is part of the church is considered to be the bride of Christ.

While the law did indeed show that mankind can't be placed under God's laws while imperfect,

No, it's the only way one can be under the law. Those who are perfect are no longer under the law, but have been freed from sin, therefore they no longer need the law as they no longer transgress it.

for the law's sole purpose to show how far from perfection we are, that wouldn't have taken hundreds of years to prove.

Agreed, except to those who are blind to their own depravity.

Yet to show that restoring mankind to perfection by a law of stone tablets alone is not possible, that would take much longer to prove.

This is an interesting point, and one I can agree on, but only insofar as it applies to those who are blind to their own depravity.

Remember, the bait dangled in front of Eve by Satan was that mankind can determine by themselves what is right and wrong.

That seems to have been a significant component, but determining what is right and wrong does not exhaust who God is, therefore Adam and Eve may have been looking at a bigger idea than just defining right and wrong.

The Law Code was God's option for the nation of Israel as opposed to Satan's option to 'go alone'.

The law code seems to be explicitly situated as a consequence of Israel's liberation from bondage. It is the picture of salvation. Once God saves his chosen people, they naturally must be given his law to follow, and this is what leads to their entry into the Promised Land which is a picture of their entry into Paradise.

The problem Paul points out is in their inability to notice that their will and efforts would never be enough to accomplish God's will. Choosing to do God's will can never insure one will do God's will.

This means time was going to be needed to show which option is best and to show if mankind can be raised to perfection by law alone. To which we know the answer to those questions. The answer is no. Israel's failure and abandonment by God as a people for His name clearly shows that Law alone can't remove the enmity between us and Jehovah God.

Yes and the added ingredient is the faith of Christ. This is explicitly what Paul states. It is what allows one to keep the law as well as what establishes the law.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

Paul made his own law, replacing Christ's words with his own, cursing those who disagreed. Nice man!

What law did Paul make that replaces Christ's?

[showme]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I don't think it's reasonable that God gave laws he did not want obeyed. That said something can serve a double or even a triple purpose... as was the case I believe of the Mosaic Law.

It's even more reasonable to note that God insures that they are kept by creating those who can't sin as is evidenced by the new heart that is given for the express purpose of keeping God's law.

[/quote]

The "new heart" was given to "the house of Israel" after "I will take you from the nations" (Ezekiel 36:24-26), which has not happened as of yet. The "lost sheep of the house of Israel", remain lost, "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:17-19). Nor do they walk in My statutes, and are "careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27) & (Malachi 4:4).

[showme]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

Paul made his own law, replacing Christ's words with his own, cursing those who disagreed. Nice man!

What law did Paul make that replaces Christ's?

Paul' gospel is the false gospel of grace/cross, where as if you say his magic prayer, and believe in the cross gospel, you are saved, and "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4), but be changed from perishable to imperishable in a twinkling of an eye, the same message as given by the serpent to the gullible Eve. The gospel of Yeshua, was "repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", and to enter into it, you must be more righteous than the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20).

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I don't think it's reasonable that God gave laws he did not want obeyed. That said something can serve a double or even a triple purpose... as was the case I believe of the Mosaic Law.

It's even more reasonable to note that God insures that they are kept by creating those who can't sin as is evidenced by the new heart that is given for the express purpose of keeping God's law.

The "new heart" was given to "the house of Israel" after "I will take you from the nations" (Ezekiel 36:24-26), which has not happened as of yet. The "lost sheep of the house of Israel", remain lost, "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:17-19). Nor do they walk in My statutes, and are "careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27) & (Malachi 4:4).[/quote]

Sure, but so what? Christ and Paul both pointed out that God would choose whomsoever he pleases from boh Jews and Gentile alike. He isn't creating a national Israel, but a spiritual one where there are no Jews or Greeks. You're still looking at it as if God is going to repeat what he already did which can't be given that he's already pointed out that he's going to do it according to his own will and "by faith" rather than works.

Evidently you've never run into a new creature in Christ, but that doesn't mean they don't exist today. It just means you've never run into one of them.

[ttruscott]

creating those who can't sin

I would suggest that it is a firming up of a resolve to full repentance until the person will never possible sin, ie cannot, that is the end result of being trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11. Not by force of mnd control of any kind but by the teaching of understanding coupled with discipline as painful as it needs to be to counter the person's stubbornness.

[Wootah]

TBN preacher this morning said the reason the Law was given was to give us a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep" and to show us our need for a savior.

His statement is in accord with Pauline, NT theology. But is this really the purpose of the Law? The "original intent" of Moses, the lawgiver? (or God through Moses).

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

Is Paul's theology on this matter a bit of revisionism?

As an aside you should watch Mike Winger on youtube.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

Are there any standards of perfection you can keep?

[showme]

[Replying to post 17 by shnarkle]

Sure, but so what? Christ and Paul both pointed out that God would choose whomsoever he pleases from boh Jews and Gentile alike. He isn't creating a national Israel, but a spiritual one where there are no Jews or Greeks. You're still looking at it as if God is going to repeat what he already did which can't be given that he's already pointed out that he's going to do it according to his own will and "by faith" rather than works.

Evidently you've never run into a new creature in Christ, but that doesn't mean they don't exist today. It just means you've never run into one of them.

Your quoting the false prophet Paul as if God is speaking. Israel is already "My inheritance". (Joel 3:2), who have been under judgment for over 2000 years (Joel 5 & 6:2). The Gentile's were bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver until "Israel will return" (Hosea 3). "Faith alone" is Paul's dogma, not anything taught by the LORD. Yeshua's message was "repent" and that one must surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees, and not to even look at a woman with lust. And if you do not produce good fruit/works, you will be cut down and thrown into the fire". "Faith alone" isn't going to get you there. It will only get you as far as Paul and his Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to God.....I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin"" Paul reeks of hypocrisy, the leaven of the Pharisees, and yet for his troubles, he says, "wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from this body of death?"(Romans 7:24) "For I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwell in me". (Romans 7:20) For Paul is the son of the devil, and cannot stop sinning, whereas the sons of God, cannot sin, for they are "born of God" and "His seed abides in him" (1 John 3:8-9). It is the "surrounding nations" who will be gathered to the "valley of YHWH judges", were the vats will overflow, "for the wickedness is great" (Joel 3:3) At that time Edom will become a "desolate wilderness", and "Judah will be inhabited forever", "and I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged.) (Joel 3:21). When Paul, the one who "commits lawlessness", is gathered out (Matthew 7:23 & 13:41), the tares will also be gathered out "first" (Matthew 13:30), and thrown into the "furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:42).