Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)
The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:
1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)
Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations
2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.
Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?
2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?
3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:
a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?
b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?
For which Jehovah should we witness?
Moderator: Moderators
Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?
Post #11I have absolutely no problem with the Shema, but I believe we should interpret the verse in the light of earlier verses within the Pentateuch.brianbbs67 wrote:that is the Shama which Jews recite to this day.2timothy316 wrote:As it stands, Deut 6:4 is an answer to your OP title. "Which Jehovah should we witness". The answer is, we should witness for the "One Jehovah". So should we not start with the most obvious Biblical answer to your title question Deut 6:4 and go from there? In case you didn't know, I answer scripture with scripture not with personal interpretation.dakoski wrote: [Replying to 2timothy316]
You could read the OP where there are explicit Scriptures cited and questions for debate posed. I'm happy to discuss Deut 6:4 but let's first discuss the Scriptures on the angel of the Lord - as this is the basis for the thread.“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4
I do not know of a scripture that says, 'Jehovah our God is many Jehovahs'.
And the subject of the thread is not to debate the interpretation of the Shema (although I'm happy to get round to that), but is to debate the meaning of the verses on the angel of Jehovah.
Post #12
I'm glad you agree that Abraham and others saw YHVH. Would you then explain to me why YHVH says in Exodus 33:20 “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� Does it make any sense to conclude that the same person who Abraham, Moses and others saw face to face later says to Moses he will die if he sees his face. Why didn't Moses, or Abraham die earlier?brianbbs67 wrote: Those that ate and drank saw God. So, did Abraham. I don't think there are 2 YHVH's described in the bible.
It makes better sense of the Biblical data to conclude that these are different persons - YHVH of the heavens who no one may see face to face and the angel of YHVH whom people may see face to face.
Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?
Post #13[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]
I'm noticing a common theme among our Jehovah's Witness friends not wanting to address the questions for debate. Its up to you if you'd care to contribute to the thread by summarising you thoughts regarding the questions for debate you are welcome. But if not that's also fine, its your choice."Plurality of persons" I don't known what that means... "Plurality of persons". Is that just some fancy way of refering to the trinity?
We did discuss these points already back in October 2016, please see links below.
Post #14
As no one has attempted to respond to the questions for debate here is my take on it:
1) Its without doubt in Scripture that no-one has ever seen the Father:
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (John 1:18)
But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:20)
2) However, it is equally unequivocal that people in the Old Testament did see a person they called God and Jehovah. I’ve given some examples below but there are many more.
For me, it stretches credibility to dismiss all of these verses and conclude no one has even seen Jehovah. Therefore, I think the best way of accounting for these verses is with John 1:18 concluding that the Bible speaks of the Father never being seen, but the Son (referred to as Jehovah but distinct from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see) making him known.
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
1) Its without doubt in Scripture that no-one has ever seen the Father:
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (John 1:18)
But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:20)
2) However, it is equally unequivocal that people in the Old Testament did see a person they called God and Jehovah. I’ve given some examples below but there are many more.
For me, it stretches credibility to dismiss all of these verses and conclude no one has even seen Jehovah. Therefore, I think the best way of accounting for these verses is with John 1:18 concluding that the Bible speaks of the Father never being seen, but the Son (referred to as Jehovah but distinct from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see) making him known.
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
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2timothy316
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Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?
Post #15Who says that Deut 6:4 needs to be interpreted to mean something else other than what it says? That scripture as far I'm concerned ends the debate as to 'which Jehovah should we witness'. There are more scriptures like it that end the debate.dakoski wrote:I have absolutely no problem with the Shema, but I believe we should interpret the verse in the light of earlier verses within the Pentateuch.brianbbs67 wrote:that is the Shama which Jews recite to this day.2timothy316 wrote:As it stands, Deut 6:4 is an answer to your OP title. "Which Jehovah should we witness". The answer is, we should witness for the "One Jehovah". So should we not start with the most obvious Biblical answer to your title question Deut 6:4 and go from there? In case you didn't know, I answer scripture with scripture not with personal interpretation.dakoski wrote: [Replying to 2timothy316]
You could read the OP where there are explicit Scriptures cited and questions for debate posed. I'm happy to discuss Deut 6:4 but let's first discuss the Scriptures on the angel of the Lord - as this is the basis for the thread.“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4
I do not know of a scripture that says, 'Jehovah our God is many Jehovahs'.
And the subject of the thread is not to debate the interpretation of the Shema (although I'm happy to get round to that), but is to debate the meaning of the verses on the angel of Jehovah.
"I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else." Isaiah 42:8
"And Jehovah will be King over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will be one, and his name one." Zechariah 14:9
As far as the scriptures that speak of the 'angel of Jehovah'. There is nothing to really debate. For the answer is in the question. Who is the angel of Jehovah? An angel. The name of the angel is clearly not important. "In turn Jacob inquired: “Tell me, please, your name.� However, he said: “Why is it that you ask my name?� Gen 32:29. This was common with angels. They did not reveal their name on almost all occasions. Gabriel and Micheal are the only named angels in the whole Bible.
"Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers the prophets and of those observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.� Revelation 22:8-9
Rev 22:8-9 also answers the title question. It is even answered by an 'angel of Jehovah'. I don't see it can be any clearer than that.
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brianbbs67
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Post #16
dakoski wrote:I'm glad you agree that Abraham and others saw YHVH. Would you then explain to me why YHVH says in Exodus 33:20 “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� Does it make any sense to conclude that the same person who Abraham, Moses and others saw face to face later says to Moses he will die if he sees his face. Why didn't Moses, or Abraham die earlier?brianbbs67 wrote: Those that ate and drank saw God. So, did Abraham. I don't think there are 2 YHVH's described in the bible.
It makes better sense of the Biblical data to conclude that these are different persons - YHVH of the heavens who no one may see face to face and the angel of YHVH whom people may see face to face.
Here is the JPS, the original take on that scripture. I must ask, though, could not God, YHVH, appear as he wishes to people? It is only the true face of God we can not see. Wouldn't require 3 personages.
IMG_1112 by brianbbs67, on FlickrNote the footnote about the others saying God is one as the translation of choice.
IMG_1114 by brianbbs67, on FlickrThere is a reference to Zech. 14:9. So here that is.
IMG_1111 by brianbbs67, on FlickrRe: For which Jehovah should we witness?
Post #17[Replying to 2timothy316]
I'm going to discuss Deuteronomy 6:4 on this occasion, however I insist our discussion must focus on the angel of Jehovah passages as that is the point of the thread, You're welcome to start a thread discussing passages which you think support your position that Jehovah is a single person God.
So lets move to your question. Do you agree that a verse in a book has a particular context? That a book (Deuteronomy) within a section of books (Pentateuch) also has a context? And that the verse should be read within the context of Deuteronomy and the rest of the Pentateuch? If not, please teach me how Scripture should be interpreted I'm always happy to learn. I was always taught that taking a verse out of its context is the very definition of letting personal interpretation override what the Scripture said - something you told me you wouldn't do.
The context is important in understanding Deuteronomy 6:4:
1) We have to try to discern what is the author teaching us in this section of Deuteronomy (6-11)
2) The Hebrew word �ֶחָד (echad) can mean numerical one but it can also mean unity. For example Gen 2:24 uses the word �ֶחָד:
"That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."
1) The context of this passage seems to be laws that delineate the first five of the ten commandments. The focus is on worshipping Jehovah alone and not the neighbouring gods of the 'nations'. So the aim here isn't to talk about Jehovah's essence as a single person god, its about worshipping Jehovah alone and not the gods of the nations. Hence it can be translated:
"Israel, remember this! The LORD--and the LORD alone--is our God."
2) The immediate context of Deut 6-11 already tells us the purpose of the verse is not what you're claiming. But we must also take the rest of the Pentateuch as context - since Deuteronomy is the final book of the Pentateuch. A sermon on the edge of the Jordan recapping all that they hard learnt previously before entering the promise land.
What they had learnt as I've established in previous posts - is that no one may see Jehovah in the heavens and live. Yet another person (the angel of Jehovah) who Scripture also calls Jehovah and God multiple times (Genesis 18, Genesis 19, Exodus 3, Exodus 33 etc) reveals and does the will of Jehovah in the heavens. These persons are distinct and yet in union share the divine name Jehovah.
Given this background when we read Deuteronomy 6:4 we cannot interpret the verse as saying Jehovah is a single person God. Because we know full well from the rest of the Pentateuch that this is not true. In this context, �ֶחָד (echad) must mean unity in a similar way to Genesis 2:24 rather than numerical oneness. If you want to disagree you'll have to start showing how these previous verses in the Pentateuch that I've cited make your case for the numerical oneness of Jehovah rather than the unity of distinct persons.
Its a little disappointing that you want to hijack the thread and refuse to discuss the questions for debate. I sometimes do that by accident but when called out I listen. I've called you out several times and yet you continue to persist - I think that approach shows a lack of respect for both people and Scripture and harms your cause. Refusing to discuss the Scriptures I've presented highlights the weakness of your position.Who says that Deut 6:4 needs to be interpreted to mean something else other than what it says? That scripture as far I'm concerned ends the debate as to 'which Jehovah should we witness'. There are more scriptures like it that end the debate.
I'm going to discuss Deuteronomy 6:4 on this occasion, however I insist our discussion must focus on the angel of Jehovah passages as that is the point of the thread, You're welcome to start a thread discussing passages which you think support your position that Jehovah is a single person God.
So lets move to your question. Do you agree that a verse in a book has a particular context? That a book (Deuteronomy) within a section of books (Pentateuch) also has a context? And that the verse should be read within the context of Deuteronomy and the rest of the Pentateuch? If not, please teach me how Scripture should be interpreted I'm always happy to learn. I was always taught that taking a verse out of its context is the very definition of letting personal interpretation override what the Scripture said - something you told me you wouldn't do.
The context is important in understanding Deuteronomy 6:4:
1) We have to try to discern what is the author teaching us in this section of Deuteronomy (6-11)
2) The Hebrew word �ֶחָד (echad) can mean numerical one but it can also mean unity. For example Gen 2:24 uses the word �ֶחָד:
"That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."
1) The context of this passage seems to be laws that delineate the first five of the ten commandments. The focus is on worshipping Jehovah alone and not the neighbouring gods of the 'nations'. So the aim here isn't to talk about Jehovah's essence as a single person god, its about worshipping Jehovah alone and not the gods of the nations. Hence it can be translated:
"Israel, remember this! The LORD--and the LORD alone--is our God."
2) The immediate context of Deut 6-11 already tells us the purpose of the verse is not what you're claiming. But we must also take the rest of the Pentateuch as context - since Deuteronomy is the final book of the Pentateuch. A sermon on the edge of the Jordan recapping all that they hard learnt previously before entering the promise land.
What they had learnt as I've established in previous posts - is that no one may see Jehovah in the heavens and live. Yet another person (the angel of Jehovah) who Scripture also calls Jehovah and God multiple times (Genesis 18, Genesis 19, Exodus 3, Exodus 33 etc) reveals and does the will of Jehovah in the heavens. These persons are distinct and yet in union share the divine name Jehovah.
Given this background when we read Deuteronomy 6:4 we cannot interpret the verse as saying Jehovah is a single person God. Because we know full well from the rest of the Pentateuch that this is not true. In this context, �ֶחָד (echad) must mean unity in a similar way to Genesis 2:24 rather than numerical oneness. If you want to disagree you'll have to start showing how these previous verses in the Pentateuch that I've cited make your case for the numerical oneness of Jehovah rather than the unity of distinct persons.
Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?
Post #18[Replying to post 15 by 2timothy316]
Zechariah 14:9 also used the Hebrew word echad see my response above to Deut 6:4, given the rest of Scripture its clear that the word means unity rather than numerical oneness.
Reading Isaiah 42:8, if Jehovah was a single person God we would expect nowhere in Scripture to speak of another person as Jehovah, right? That would be blasphemy. Yet I've given several examples where the angel of Jehovah is called Jehovah. So Isaiah 42:8 refutes your claim that Jehovah is a single person God."I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else." Isaiah 42:8
"And Jehovah will be King over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will be one, and his name one." Zechariah 14:9
Zechariah 14:9 also used the Hebrew word echad see my response above to Deut 6:4, given the rest of Scripture its clear that the word means unity rather than numerical oneness.
Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?
Post #19[Replying to post 15 by 2timothy316]
A question for you, is Gabriel or Micheal ever called Jehovah in Scripture? Only the angel of Jehovah is called Jehovah. Please could you explain Genesis 18:1 which says
"Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day."
Doesn't Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 tells us no one has ever seen Jehovah? Who is this then? Is Jehovah giving his name and glory to another?
Read Genesis 18-19 through, don't just cherry pick verses read the whole account. When you get to 19:23 we get this intriguing verse where Jehovah who has been speaking with Abraham goes down to Sodom and then rains down sulfur from Jehovah in the heavens:"By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." That's an interesting verse, how do you interpret it?
Exodus 33:11 also tells us that Jehovah spoke face to face with Moses as a man speaks with his friend. Is this Jehovah in the heavens - no Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 rules this out. For which Jehovah should we witness? I believe we should witness to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are all addressed as Jehovah in the Scriptures.
I've given you many more Scriptures where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah and God. These verses show that there is another person referred to as Jehovah who has been seen who is distinct from Jehovah who no one may see and live. Do you agree with me that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". If so, you will not simply dismiss these Scriptures just because they conflict with your personal interpretation.
As far as the scriptures that speak of the 'angel of Jehovah'. There is nothing to really debate. For the answer is in the question. Who is the angel of Jehovah? An angel. The name of the angel is clearly not important. "In turn Jacob inquired: “Tell me, please, your name.� However, he said: “Why is it that you ask my name?� Gen 32:29. This was common with angels. They did not reveal their name on almost all occasions. Gabriel and Micheal are the only named angels in the whole Bible.
A question for you, is Gabriel or Micheal ever called Jehovah in Scripture? Only the angel of Jehovah is called Jehovah. Please could you explain Genesis 18:1 which says
"Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day."
Doesn't Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 tells us no one has ever seen Jehovah? Who is this then? Is Jehovah giving his name and glory to another?
Read Genesis 18-19 through, don't just cherry pick verses read the whole account. When you get to 19:23 we get this intriguing verse where Jehovah who has been speaking with Abraham goes down to Sodom and then rains down sulfur from Jehovah in the heavens:"By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." That's an interesting verse, how do you interpret it?
Exodus 33:11 also tells us that Jehovah spoke face to face with Moses as a man speaks with his friend. Is this Jehovah in the heavens - no Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 rules this out. For which Jehovah should we witness? I believe we should witness to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are all addressed as Jehovah in the Scriptures.
I've given you many more Scriptures where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah and God. These verses show that there is another person referred to as Jehovah who has been seen who is distinct from Jehovah who no one may see and live. Do you agree with me that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". If so, you will not simply dismiss these Scriptures just because they conflict with your personal interpretation.
Again, this makes my point rather well. When John makes the mistake of worshipping an angel of God he is rebuked by that angel. Why when Abraham, Moses and others refer to the angel of Jehovah as Jehovah are they not rebuked? You'd expect that, since calling addressing someone falsely as Jehovah would be blasphemy, right? Why no rebuke?"Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers the prophets and of those observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.� Revelation 22:8-9
Rev 22:8-9 also answers the title question. It is even answered by an 'angel of Jehovah'. I don't see it can be any clearer than that.
Post #20
[Replying to post 16 by brianbbs67]
I'm not sure what distinction you are drawing - a 'true face' and a 'fake face'? I'm not sure where Scripture speaks of a 'fake face' of God.
I agree YHVH can appear to us as he wishes, I'm simply delineating what I think the Scriptures teach about this. Its not my opinion, its just what I believe the Bible tells us about how he wishes to appear. Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 tells us God the Father has never appeared to any human. However he wishes another to reveal him, a person also sharing the divine name YHVH but who speaks to people face to face - e.g. Exodus 33:11 and John 1:18.
Here is the JPS, the original take on that scripture. I must ask, though, could not God, YHVH, appear as he wishes to people? It is only the true face of God we can not see. Wouldn't require 3 personages.
I'm not sure what distinction you are drawing - a 'true face' and a 'fake face'? I'm not sure where Scripture speaks of a 'fake face' of God.
I agree YHVH can appear to us as he wishes, I'm simply delineating what I think the Scriptures teach about this. Its not my opinion, its just what I believe the Bible tells us about how he wishes to appear. Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 tells us God the Father has never appeared to any human. However he wishes another to reveal him, a person also sharing the divine name YHVH but who speaks to people face to face - e.g. Exodus 33:11 and John 1:18.
