Which is risker?

[Elijah John]

Which approach is riskier?

a) To worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is not?

b) Or to not worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is?

Why?

[The Tanager]

Let's asssume for this OP that we risk the displeasure of God by getting it wrong. Whatever that means exactly, annihilation, hell, purgatory or some other punishment (even if that punishment is "only" corrective and temporary in the afterlife) is a secondary question.

Okay, so (a) if we worship Jesus as God and it turns out he is not, then God is displeased for us getting it wrong. And (b) if we don't worship Jesus as God and it turns out he is, then God is displeased with us getting it wrong. So, neither approach is riskier than the other, right?

[Elijah John]

And (b) if we don't worship Jesus as God and it turns out he is, then God is displeased with us getting it wrong. So, neither approach is riskier than the other, right?

Ah, that's the thing. Where is the Biblical evidence for "b"? Where in Scripture does Jesus ever command us to accept him as God?

Seems to me, no command, no punishment. Doesn't Paul, in so many words say the same thing about commandment and punishment in Romans?

And by contrast, there is Biblical evidence that YHVH would be displeased if anyone worships some other "god" before him. That evidence is the first commandment, at the very least.

And if Jesus is not God, and folks worship him as though he was, isn't that putting another god before Jehovah? A violation of the first commandment?

[Matthew S Islam]

Which approach is riskier?

a) To worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is not?

b) Or to not worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is?

Why?

Greetings.

1) How do you understand Jesus worship?

a) Is it only the resulting from deification, or does it take place regardless of one's view on the deity of Christ?

b) Let us suppose that Paul is a Unitarian Christian. Do you view him as someone who practiced and preached Jesus worship in his writings?


---


It is safer to reject the deity of Christ and worship YHWH alone. This is because the deity of YHWH is established with Scriptural certainty, and He is the default God recognized by the Israelites.

Christian's assert that the New Testament introduces Jesus and the Holy Spirit as additional Divine Persons. Prior to the New Testament, no one has ever concluded the Christian God. Hence, it is 'safer' to reject these newly introduced Divine Persons, on the very basis that they are new, and the Jewish Scriptures are severe on this issue.


General belief in 'God' i.e. the Eternal Will, naturally implies that He is a single force. Without scripture and doctrine, there would be no reason for anyone to conclude a triune God, just like there's no reason for us to believe that God's is made of 10 Divine Persons. Anything other than God being 'Fully One' is unnecessary, and it creates more problems than it solves. The question becomes: if God is a Trinity, then why did He create a universe that doesn't naturally suggest Tri-unity? Why is Unitarian Monotheism more in line with our senses, as oppose to Trinitarian theology?

[Matthew S Islam]

Which approach is riskier?

a) To worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is not?

b) Or to not worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is?

Why?

Greetings.

1) How do you understand Jesus worship?

a) Is it only resulting from deification, or does it take place regardless of one's view on the deity of Christ?

b) Let us suppose that Paul is a Unitarian Christian. Do you view him as someone who practiced and preached Jesus worship in his writings?


---


It is safer to reject the deity of Christ and worship YHWH alone. This is because the deity of YHWH is established with Scriptural certainty, and He is the default God recognized by the Israelites.

Christian's assert that the New Testament introduces Jesus and the Holy Spirit as additional Divine Persons. Prior to the New Testament, no one has ever concluded the Christian God. Hence, it is 'safer' to reject these newly introduced Divine Persons, on the very basis that they are new, and the Jewish Scriptures are severe on this issue.


General belief in 'God' i.e. the Eternal Will, naturally implies that He is a single force. Without scripture and doctrine, there would be no reason for anyone to conclude a triune God, just like there's no reason for us to believe that God's is made of 10 Divine Persons. Anything other than God being 'Fully One' is unnecessary, and it creates more problems than it solves. The question becomes: if God is a Trinity, then why did He create a universe that doesn't naturally suggest Tri-unity? Why is Unitarian Monotheism more in line with our senses, as oppose to Trinitarian theology?

[Elijah John]

Which approach is riskier?

a) To worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is not?

b) Or to not worship Jesus as God, and it turns out that he is?

Why?

Greetings.

1) How do you understand Jesus worship?

a) Is it only resulting from deification, or does it take place regardless of one's view on the deity of Christ?

b) Let us suppose that Paul is a Unitarian Christian. Do you view him as someone who practiced and preached Jesus worship in his writings?


---


It is safer to reject the deity of Christ and worship YHWH alone. This is because the deity of YHWH is established with Scriptural certainty, and He is the default God recognized by the Israelites.

Christian's assert that the New Testament introduces Jesus and the Holy Spirit as additional Divine Persons. Prior to the New Testament, no one has ever concluded the Christian God. Hence, it is 'safer' to reject these newly introduced Divine Persons, on the very basis that they are new, and the Jewish Scriptures are severe on this issue.


General belief in 'God' i.e. the Eternal Will, naturally implies that He is a single force. Without scripture and doctrine, there would be no reason for anyone to conclude a triune God, just like there's no reason for us to believe that God's is made of 10 Divine Persons. Anything other than God being 'Fully One' is unnecessary, and it creates more problems than it solves. The question becomes: if God is a Trinity, then why did He create a universe that doesn't naturally suggest Tri-unity? Why is Unitarian Monotheism more in line with our senses, as oppose to Trinitarian theology?

Hi Matthew. "Jesus worship" is praying to him, as some do, praising him in song and prayer, as many do, and in general putting him in a believer's life in a place where one would normally put God.

And regarding Paul. I think he would deny that Christ is actually YHVH God, if pressed. But the way he refers to Jesus,( far more often than the Father), it seems for all practical purposes Paul's god was "Christ". ("every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess..." etc.)

I agree with your subsequent points pretty much verbatim. Excellent. I would only add that pure, YHVH worship seems a far safer bet than worhiping the messenger, Jesus. After all, didn't Jesus himself say and teach to worship YHVH alone?

[The Tanager]

Ah, that's the thing. Where is the Biblical evidence for "b"? Where in Scripture does Jesus ever command us to accept him as God?

Seems to me, no command, no punishment. Doesn't Paul, in so many words say the same thing about commandment and punishment in Romans?

And by contrast, there is Biblical evidence that YHVH would be displeased if anyone worships some other "god" before him. That evidence is the first commandment, at the very least.

And if Jesus is not God, and folks worship him as though he was, isn't that putting another god before Jehovah? A violation of the first commandment?

Oh, you are wanting to discuss which view is supported by Scripture. I thought you were talking about the riskiness in a general sense. I certainly realize each of the verses I talk about would have to be looked at more in depth, so I'm just briefly offering them as Biblical evidence that Jesus is God and we can look more closely at each one.

John 1 talks about the Word being God and then identifies Jesus as being the Word.

In John 8:58 Jesus claims the divine name for Himself and the Jews realize this and try to stone him.

In John 10:33 we see that the Jewish people were trying to stone Jesus for claiming to be God and Jesus does not deny it, saying even humans have been called gods, but distancing his relationship to God from that.

In Mark 14 we have a similar thing occurring. Jesus claims he will be sitting at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven (v. 62). The high priest immediately accuses him of blasphemy because of this statement.

Jesus tells his disciples to pray to him (John 14:13-14 and 16:26).

Various people worship Jesus and he doesn't correct them (Matthew 14:33; 28:9, John 20:28).

Jesus forgives sins, which everybody believes can only be done by God (Mark 2).

In John 17:5 Jesus claims to have had glory with the Father before the world was made. Well aware of Isaiah 42:8 saying that He will not share His glory with another.

Paul sees Jesus as Creator and not creature (see Colossians 1:15-20 for example).

Paul also says there that all the fullness of God dwelled in Jesus in that passage.

The authors of 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 call Jesus our God and Savior.

James said Jesus was the Lord of glory, echoing Psalm 24's description of God in this way.

The author of Hebrews 1:8 has God saying about the Son, Jesus, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever.

Those are my initial thoughts.

[Matthew S Islam]

Hi Matthew. "Jesus worship" is praying to him, as some do, praising him in song and prayer, as many do, and in general putting him in a believer's life in a place where one would normally put God.

And regarding Paul. I think he would deny that Christ is actually YHVH God, if pressed. But the way he refers to Jesus,( far more often than the Father), it seems for all practical purposes Paul's god was "Christ". ("every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess..." etc.)

I agree with your subsequent points pretty much verbatim. Excellent. I would only add that pure, YHVH worship seems a far safer bet than worhiping the messenger, Jesus. After all, didn't Jesus himself say and teach to worship YHVH alone?

Well, it seems that the problem is intrinsic to the Christian faith itself. I'm sure we can all agree that the Biblical Jesus practiced and preached a very Jewish message. However, mainstream Christians do not restrict themselves to the worldly ministry of Christ. Not only is Paul considered an additonal theological authority, but evidently, his teachings supercede the earlier teachings of Jesus. Christians would assert that Paul is receiving Divine inspiration from Jesus and the Holy Spirit; and because of that, the teachings of Paul are just the updated teachings of Jesus.

Paul's understanding of Jesus' Lordship conflicts with pure monotheism. As such, anyone who believes in the Bible and recognizes the truthfulness of Paul's theology, will therefore become guilty of some form of polytheism. Paul prays to and seeks help from Jesus; Paul praises Jesus excessively; and his understanding of Jesus' Lordship contradicts God's exclusive role as our Lord and God.

Would you agree that all Bible believing Christians are guilty of Christ worship--including Unitarians? Does it just come down to how they worship him i.e. as God or as a creation?

[JehovahsWitness]

James said Jesus was the Lord of glory, echoing Psalm 24's description of God in this way.

Can you provide the references for the above.


Thanks,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus forgives sins, which everybody believes can only be done by God (Mark 2).

That statement is blatantly false; EVERYONE doesn't believe that. The Pharisees believed that; everyone that agrees with that Pharisaic belief believes that, but it is a fact that not everyone believes that.


JW


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JW

[Elijah John]

Well, it seems that the problem is intrinsic to the Christian faith itself. I'm sure we can all agree that the Biblical Jesus practiced and preached a very Jewish message. However, mainstream Christians do not restrict themselves to the worldly ministry of Christ.

"Worldly ministry of Christ"? Well, I guess you're right. Judging by the fascination many Christians have for the Book of Revelation, and the esteem they hold for Paul. Both channels for the "Risen" Christ, as opposed to the historical Jesus,

Not only is Paul considered an additonal theological authority, but evidently, his teachings supercede the earlier teachings of Jesus. Christians would assert that Paul is receiving Divine inspiration from Jesus and the Holy Spirit; and because of that, the teachings of Paul are just the updated teachings of Jesus.

And that's ironic. How can the "Word of God" (Jesus) be superseeded by anyone? Wouldn't the teachings of the "Word" be the final say? Why would anyone need Paul to clarify, or interpret Jesus? Seems Muslims have more respect for Mohammed, who they consider the "Seal of the Prophets" than Christians do for Jesus. After all, there is no "Paul" in Islam to supercede the main messenger.

Paul's understanding of Jesus' Lordship conflicts with pure monotheism. As such, anyone who believes in the Bible and recognizes the truthfulness of Paul's theology, will therefore become guilty of some form of polytheism. Paul prays to and seeks help from Jesus; Paul praises Jesus excessively; and his understanding of Jesus' Lordship contradicts God's exclusive role as our Lord and God.

Agreed, I have come to see it that way. Though Paul doesn't really come out and say, "Jesus is my God" he may as well have. For all intents and purposes, and for all practical purposes, Paul in effect treats Jesus as "God".

Would you agree that all Bible believing Christians are guilty of Christ worship--including Unitarians? Does it just come down to how they worship him i.e. as God or as a creation?

Not really. When you say the "Bible" you mean the New Testament included. Jews call their Tanakh the Bible as well, and they are pure Monotheists.

Also, I don't think unitarian Christians (small "u", as opposed to modern day Unitarian Universalists) worship Jesus. As far as I know, unitarian Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses never do so. You won't hear exlamations such as "Praise Jesus" or "Thank you Jesus" uttered at a Kingdom Hall.

But I would agree that most unitarian Christians have extremely high Christologies, but stop just short of calling Jesus "God".