World Mission Society Church of God

[For_The_Kingdom]

Part 1

Hello folks. Be prepared, as this is going to be a long post. This thread is mainly for Christians, or former Christians, as it is about to get very theological around here. But of course, anyone can weigh in on the topic as you see fit. I don’t make threads often, so when I do, it is usually something that has been on my mind for a while. I’ve had some recent experiences (off and on) for the past 3 years or so, that has really rocked my “theological� world. I’d like to share with you guys some of these experiences.

These experiences have humbled me. Why? Because as I pointed out elsewhere, sometimes I have a certain “arrogance� about myself; thinking that I know everything…or at the very least; thinking that I know enough. Come to find out, I have a longggg way to go. Knowledge never stops. The quest for learning never ends.

You see, for the past 15 years or so, when it comes to “in house� Christian debates, I’ve been focusing EXCLUSIVELY on Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why? Because I have members of my family that are JW’s…we are talking some of my favorite cousins; and over the years, theological debates with them have been common.

That, followed by their “arrogant� attitudes and “self-righteous� fronts, I’ve been pretty much programed to go after them (Jehovah’s Witnesses, in general)…completely ignoring all of the other “cults� or “sects� within Christianity (Mormons, SDA’s, Calvinists, Catholics, etc).

Not that I would ever shy away from those other folks. But let’s face, it, Jehovah’s Witnesses are out there on the forefront…their Kingdom Halls are everywhere, and they are constantly out there in the field, whether it be going door to door or posted up on the sidewalk with their carts…so it is far more convenient to converse with them, as opposed to any other groups.

Now, again, I’ve much dedicated my entire apologetic journey to Jehovah’s Witnesses (in house), pretty much ignoring all other sects. But I’ve always acknowledged that the “others� were out there.

I’d thought I’ve heard of just about every little group/sect of Christianity out there. Boy, was I wrong.

I will now turn our attention to the World Mission Society of God. Wait a minute…who? The World Mission Society of God. Who are these guys? Let me tell you the story..

So, about 2 years or so ago, I had went to a particular Walmart to handle some business, and as I was walking through the parking lot of the shopping center, I was approached by 2 gentleman (a young, Hispanic guy..and an older black guy). As they approached me, I could see a third gentleman (white guy) from a distance, talking to someone else in the parking lot. At first, I thought that they were Jehovah’s Witnesses. Of course, I always jump at the opportunity to discuss the Bible with JW’s. But as the two gentleman began to talk to me, I noticed that they were not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Now keep in mind, this all happened a couple of years ago, so I can’t remember everything about the conversation, just bits and pieces..it went something like this (paraphrasing)…

Them: Hello sir, we are just out here spreading the word of God, you do believe in Father God, right?
Me: Absolutely.
Them: Do you believe in Mother God?
Me: Mother God?

Now let me pause right there. First off, let me be honest…in all of my years of living, and all the knowledge of ever had on God, the Bible, etc…I’ve NEVER…EVER, EVER heard of any Christian doctrine related to a “Mother God�. Not within Christianity. Never. Did you guys ever hear of a “Mother God� as it relates to Christianity? I certainly hadn’t. Not up until that point. Anyway..

Me: Mother God?
Them: Yes, Mother God. If there is a Father God, there has to be a Mother God, right? (or, If there is a Father God, doesn’t it make sense for there to be a Mother God) [A variation of those two statements]

Now, thinking back, I recall that the immediate non-biased reaction in my brain was to says “Right�, conceding his point, due to the natural order of things in the world (everyone has a biological father and mother). But the years of following Orthodox Christianity far out weighted this knee-jerk reaction.

Me: No, not necessarily.
Them: Oh, let me show you something..
*opens Bible, goes to Genesis 1:27*
Them: You see, God created man in his image, right?
Me: Right.
Them: And the woman was created in God’s image too, right?
Me: Right, but when it says “God created man in his image�, it is talking about “mankind�, and the woman (females) are included in “mankind�.
Them: But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from.

Wow, stumped me. Now, that is the gist of how the conversation began, there was more to be said after that. We stood there talking for about 10 minutes until the third gentleman joined us. So, the four of us stood out there for about a half hour discussing this. They invited me to have a Bible study at their church, which I agreed. I gave my contact info and wished them a good day.

However, they never called me back, and I had since forgotten about them, eventually concluding that they were part of a false cult or whatever.
Now, fast forward to about 6 months ago, as 2 years had passed since my encounter with them. I had to make a trip to the SAME Walmart. After handling my business, I was on my way to walk out of the Walmart, heading towards to final exit (in the area where you get your cart), when at the door, I see a young, Hispanic woman talking to two older Hispanic women at the door.

Again, I thought that these were Jehovah’s Witnesses. So I approached them and listened, and observed. The younger woman had her Bible open and was discussing some theological stuff with the women. For the most part, what she was saying seemed to be in order. However, when the two older ladies left, I began a conversation with the young woman (Lets call her Nicole).

To be honest, I can’t remember what we spoke about initially…HOWEVER, as the conversation lingered, she said something about “Mother God�. And then it dawned on me….ohhhhhh, she must be part of that same group. So our conversation went similar to the conversation I had with those gentlemen two years prior. Nicole and I stood there for about 15 minutes, going back and forth and things was getting a little tense, but in a good, spirited way.

Before she departed, Nicole invited me to their church for a Bible study, and I agreed. I gave her my contact info and vice versa. We agreed for the Bible study to take place on the following Monday. As we got closer to Monday, I told her that I didn’t have a vehicle…and she told me that transportation could be provided…and I told her she could just scoop me up at the same Walmart (we are communicating via text). She told me that she would have one of the “brothers� scoop me up at the Walmart.

So while I am waiting on the brother to scoop me up, she texted me, telling me that she think I am going to enjoy the Bible study, as they serve food and everything. I expressed to her the fact that I may not agree with everything that is being said at the study…and she said “No worries, this will be a personal Bible study and you will be able to ask as many questions as you like�.

Sounds good to me. So I arrive at the Walmart, and had some time to burn so I am waiting at the Mcdonald’s instead of Walmart. Suddenly, I get a text message

*Hello, this is (lets call him Orlando). Nicole told me you needed a ride to the church. I am outside*

He also texted me the type of car he drove and what side of the store to meet him. So, when I get outside, I see his car and he blew the horn. When I get into the car, I am greeted with a preppy, studious looking black guy. He was very well-spoken and mild mannered.

I introduced myself and we drove off to the church. As we rode, we talked about work and various other “acquaintance� subjects. The church wasn’t far, and we reached it between 3-5 minutes. We pull into the parking lot of a big church. On the front of the building, the words “World Mission Society Church of God� was in nice big letters.

At the time, I didn’t know that “World Mission Society Church of God� was the name of the denomination. I thought it was just the name of the church (big difference). Anyways, along-side of the church there was a smaller building. So, we got out of the car, and I followed him to the smaller building. As we approached the building, there were people socializing outside of the building. As we grew closer, everyone stopped talking and greeted us both. It was a very “welcoming� environment. We walk into the building, which is kind of a cafeteria/social setting, with booths and tables and chairs. And there was a full kitchen where women were serving food and drinks (non alcoholic).

Orlando asked me “Do you want to get something to eat�, to which I answered “Hecks yeah�. So we get something to eat. They were serving tacos/enchiladas and other stuff. As we waited in line, I looked around the room. There were various people at various tables and booths, eating and having Bible studies.
People were coming up to us and greeting us…and stopping for small talk/chatter. The place had a very friendly, warm, welcoming vibe to it. Actually, it had a very “Jehovah’s Witness/Kingdom Hall" kind of atmosphere (minus the food). If anyone ever visited a Kingdom Hall, you know what I am talking about.

So, Orlando and I get our food and we sit down at one of the tables to grub. After we ate, we got down to business. And once we began to talk…I was in for a surprise…Part 2 coming soon.

[tam]

Peace again to you,

Apparently, this religion (the one you mention in your OP) believes that a man was Christ as the second coming (even though this man died). They also appear to claim that an actual living woman in Korea is this 'heavenly mother' (oddly enough, they make this claim even though this Ahn guy once said such a claim was - to paraphrase - 'crazy talk'). Two schisms formed after the Ahn guy died, both he and they have made failed predictions about the last day, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahn_Sahng-hong



Funny - sad funny - how people do not wake up even with the evidence of their religion or its leaders being false prophets; and not just in this religion, but in other sects as well.



"A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land:The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?" Jeremiah 5:30, 31




Very sad.



Especially when Christ has said,

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear so as to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride (the people who make up His Church, His Body), say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


(which water is holy spirit, poured out from Christ)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by For_The_Kingdom]

I get the impression 'made in the image of' is not about form at all, but 'the spirit' and that is something we don't have, but something which we are...just like GOD.

The clues are within the biblical stories, as well as in other theologies.

Once the spirit was breathed into the form, the form became living and due to the form and the environment the form is occupied in, this lead to a natural enough expression of talent through the form, which inhibited some things while allowing other things, and this allowed for the eventual formation of GOD ideas, which included the idea that GOD was a male - modeled upon the masculine in terms of masculinity and patriarchy - not often the good side of male expression either.

Often the mother is completely hidden from view in relation to the Abrahamic religions
or thought of in the image of Mary, wife of GOD and mother of Jesus - all very 'human' suggesting yet again the evidence for the GOD being made in the image of humans.

I would say that the more humans push for changes in their world views and love and acceptance and tolerance the more they will be listening to the voice of the spiritual that they are and the closer they will come to realizing the image of GOD is in everyone and everything.

Moving from the monotheism of 'one GOD as a form, in the sky/alternate reality male humanoid on a throne judging this and that etc et al, to a more realistic version of monotheism, more related to Panentheism, which sees oneness in the same way as it sees the universe...all that is, individual, separate, yet one and the same altogether, making up what is 'the universe' - just as all that is spirit altogether makes up 'what is GOD'.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by For_The_Kingdom]

But a woman is different than a man, right? So how can two humans with different “features� be created in one “single� image. Either God is a transgender God or there has to be a woman “model� of whose image the woman is made up from.

Wow, stumped me.

Great. While I know this is the TDD subforum, I will say that this likely points to a polytheistic origin for the story in Genesis. After all, even in our "official" English versions that we have today, there is mention of gods in the plural. So it very well could have been that the story in Genesis first was told with multiple gods in mind, if at least two (a mother god and a father god), then through various tellings and re-tellings, it eventually morphed (or should I say evolved?) into what we have today - a singular father god who creates man and woman in his image and who muses about what would happen if Adam and Eve ate both magical fruit and became like them.

eventually concluding that they were part of a false cult or whatever.

What is a false cult?

But what exactly does that mean? I never knew exactly what that meant (and in some ways, still don't), and I never bothered to do any research on it because, quite frankly, the subject never comes up in any of my theological discussions.

As an aside - this is one of the things I intensely dislike about religion and Christianity in particular. Various claims are made, words are put together, called 'true', but no-one really knows what they mean.
FtK, would you preach (if ever you preached, I don't know if you do in real life) that we ARE in fact made in the image of God...and yet admit you haven't got a clue what that phrase means? Would you teach it to youngsters?

It never comes up in any of my discussions with JW's, because we all agree that we are in fact made in God's image, so we don't spend time talking about stuff that we all agree on.

Even though you just admitted you don't know what it is, what it means. It's just a conglomeration of words stuck together.

It never comes up in any of my discussions with naturalists/atheists, because they don't believe in God in the first place, so trying to explain to them that we are made in God's image is pointless if I am unable to convince them that God exists at all.

If ever you have mentioned it to us, have you admitted
I never knew exactly what that meant (and in some ways, still don't),

?

and I am unable to adequately respond to such a "far left" unorthodox Biblical interpretation.

What makes it 'far left'? Left and right are political positions, and we're here talking in the Theology subforum.

I gotta disagree with you there. The only intrinsic difference between a male in a female is our reproductive systems.

There's quite a lot more involved in the differences between male and female, other than what is involved in reproduction. For one example - have you ever noticed that females tend to be the ones with larger, lactating breasts? Not involved in the process of reproduction at all, and yet, males tend not to have breasts, or ones that lactate.
There's also the lack of chest and facial hair on women, as compared to men.

what does it mean to say that man is created in "God's image", and how is the female excluded from that?

What indeed. Perhaps we shouldn't be going around saying that this thing is true, while not understanding it ourselves?

if and only if the Goddess is a "lesser" God (lesser abilities, etc).

Explain yourself? Why would a polytheistic interpretation of Genesis require that the female god be lesser in ability than the male one?

I guess the answer would be no...as God is a spirit and there is no need for that...but then again, we do have the nephilim..so hey.

Do we? Where?

I don't think they are saying that the male and female God are copulating.

No, they're just somehow the template from which humans are made in the image of, and since humans have reproductive organs and use them...

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 10 by Divine Insight]

Well, well, well...you know, when I made this thread, I had no idea it was going to turn into a "debate" with a guy who did a half-job of reading the OP, and with that comes the misinformation springing from his fingertips as he attempts to critique me, which is also accompanied by down-right ignorance of what the WMSCOG believes, and what their claims are.

As I read your last couple of posts, DI..what I noticed is that you've done something special..as you were able to adequately misrepresent the theology, of people who are actually misrepresenting theology (true Christian theology).

Now, I have mixed feelings about that. I don't know if I should be shocked, or impressed. Maybe a combination of both.

Instead of replying to your many straw man tactics and down-right misrepresentations, I will simply just let you have the last word and let you think whatever it is you want to think about the subject at hand.

Oh, and another thing; let me "apologize" for having you wrong, on the whole "Christian Apologetic" tip. You see, usually when someone uses "Christian Apologetics" in a context, after the "context" is over, the word "apologetic (Greek verb/adjective)" term is no longer used. Afterwards, the word goes back to the English word/verb/adjective of "defense".

However, you've done something else special...you continued to use the word in the Greek sense, which I didn't expect. Again, shocked, or impressed? Both? Anyway, I was wrong and I apologize.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by rikuoamero]

Great. While I know this is the TDD subforum, I will say that this likely points to a polytheistic origin for the story in Genesis. After all, even in our "official" English versions that we have today, there is mention of gods in the plural. So it very well could have been that the story in Genesis first was told with multiple gods in mind, if at least two (a mother god and a father god), then through various tellings and re-tellings, it eventually morphed (or should I say evolved?) into what we have today - a singular father god who creates man and woman in his image and who muses about what would happen if Adam and Eve ate both magical fruit and became like them.

While this might be the case, we are able to extend our knowledge to include explanations outside the common ideas associated with GOD, even from the human perspective.

We could wonder if dolphins have some idea of GOD, and if their ideas include imagery of a GOD in the form of a dolphin.

We have many different examples of form and procreation on this planet to work with in understanding that;

IF
All biological life forms were created by an entity of some sort (which we can agree would fit into the context of what might be considered an attribute of a GOD)

THEN
We can determine that there must be more to this GOD than being 'male' or 'female' or even 'humanoid'.

This because of the myriad of forms which occupy the planet...even those which once existed, and even those which have yet to exist.

What this tells us then is that GOD (this creative entity) is masterfully imaginative but cannot so easily be seen to be 'this' or 'that' in terms of form.

We would be forced to reconsider the imagery altogether and desist with the idea altogether that GOD is recognizable as being any particular form at all and that phrases such as "you have seen me, you have seen the father" are part of that attempt to make images of GOD tangible but not permanent, as in doctrinal. GOD can be no more a 'father' than a 'mother', a 'sister', a 'brother'...these are merely things which act as steps towards deeper/wider truth pertaining to GOD and as such are left behind once they have been utilized - else the individual simply stands on their favorite step and moves no more.

So it is not really a case of "Polytheistic?" or "Monotheistic?" as these are terms infused in form and in Spirit are really indistinguishable. GOD is Spirit and in that GOD is ONE, consisting of the many. The nature of the universe explains this to us as well. As form it is one thing which consists of multiple things.

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 12 by William]

Angels are/have spirits, too. Are they also made in God's image?

[William]

[Replying to post 12 by William]

Angels are/have spirits, too. Are they also made in God's image?

See post #15 which I think answers your Q adequately.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 14 by For_The_Kingdom]

I understand. Screaming "straw man" when you can't think of a meaningful apology to the issues raised is a quite common 21st century tactic.

Don't feel bad, you're hardly alone. This has become the status quo for Christian apologetics anymore.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I understand. Screaming "straw man" when you can't think of a meaningful apology to the issues raised is a quite common 21st century tactic.

I only "scream" straw man when someone attacks a position that isn't being held.

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 12 by William]

Angels are/have spirits, too. Are they also made in God's image?

See post #15 which I think answers your Q adequately.

Bruh, I really didn't understand that post. Dumb it down for me if you can muster up the energy.