How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew ?

[dio9]

Tradition clearly states Jesus was betrayed.
How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew Judas was going to betray him? Betrayal is a surprise unexpected . Betrayal means taken by surprise. Have you ever been betrayed?

I believe Jesus was betrayed but as a biblical buff question the Gospel account where Jesus dismisses Judas to go do what he has to do.

John 13:26
Jesus replied, “He’s the one I give the piece of bread to after I have dipped it.� When He had dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son.

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

As I said I believe he was betrayed but am afraid the account in John's Gospel is drama.

Show me I am thinking wrong.

[bluethread]

As with many discussions on this site, this is a discussion based on nuanced definition. Betrayal is simply "the breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict". Intent is not necessary. In fact one can accidentally betray someone. Surprise is also not necessary. It is still betrayal whether the one betrayed knows of it or not. That said, I do not really understand the point. Is this a matter of questioning the word used, the placing of blame for the ensuing moral and psychological conflict, or something else?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 4 by 2timothy316]

and his actions were not commanded to him by Jesus.

"“What you are about to do, do quickly.� "

Nor is there any indication that Jesus wanted Judas to betray him.

Jesus, according to the Bible, does nothing to stop Judas from "betraying" him (or cheating on him, to use ted's analogy) and in fact, according to Christianity, Judas had to "betray" Jesus to the authorities, otherwise Jesus couldn't/wouldn't be killed and resurrected, to fulfill the divine cosmic plan.

Yet, once Judas had put Satan's plan in motion, Jesus didn't stop that plan. Jesus wants his Father's will to take place.

To again use ted's analogy, this is the husband listening to his father telling him to allow the wife to sleep with other men. The wife's father-in-law has some plan in mind that requires the wife to engage in extra-marital intercourse.

This act of evil would be turned into a blessing for all of mankind.

So, it's not cheating. Also...did you just call something God planned/willed...evil? Seems to me that you did.

So is it still cheating? It most certainly is still cheating and in Judas' case, it's still betrayal. Even if Jesus had not said 'do it quickly' Judas still would have did what he set out to do.

How? Walk me through the analogy please.
You have a spouse. You and your father have a goal, some end to achieve, that you believe benefits all people, and that, in order for this to happen, your spouse has to engage in extra-marital sexual intercourse. You are fully aware that she is doing this, and that she plans to do it. You reveal to friends and family what your spouse is doing, what she plans to do. You tell her to do it, in front of family and friends.
I am not seeing where the betrayal/cheating is. In fact...what if your spouse did NOT engage in the extra-marital affair? What if she (or Judas) did not quote unquote betray her husband/Jesus? What if Judas had somehow, for whatever reason, not gone along with Satan? What if Judas had said "No, Master! I won't betray you! In fact, here, take and keep the coins! Fellow disciples, sit here with me and make sure I don't leave the house, don't give me an opportunity to identify our master to the authorities!"

Your example isn't accurate. You're comparing apples and oranges. The plan is to spread the good news of the kingdom. There are two basic outcomes; the message is heard and received, or it isn't heard, and instead rejected. At some point Jesus sees that his message isn't going to be recieved, and he then becomes aware that because it has been rejected he is going to die. There's nothing that says this is his plan. It's just something they see as a natural consequence of the rejection of his message.

It's no different that two people who enter into a marriage. The possibility of betrayal is there, but that doesn't mean either of the two people entering into the marriage are planning on that outcome. If one does cheat, then the marriage is essentially and effectively dead. Just because the spouse knew that was a possibility doesn't mean they were looking for that outcome or that they planned it.


Now that they know they've been cheated and the marriage is effectively over, to accept that fact isn't to necessarily have planned it. If your wife despises you and is shacked up with someone else, do you really want her back? Woudn't you just tell her to get busy with her new life? Maybe you would want to plead and beg her to come back because you just can't live without her, but to let her go isn't to have planned her betrayal.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 8 by 2timothy316]

Knowing what someone is going to do doesn't change what is in a person's heart and their motive for doing it. Judas' greed still made him a betrayer and Jesus knowing what was being planned doesn't change Judas' wicked act. Neither Jesus or Jehovah plan these plots the only thing they control is their response to them. Jehovah God uses evil plots against the plotter. That is His response. The account of Esther is another occasion where God knew what was going to happen. Even then that doesn't make God an accessory to the plot or it's designer.

Yes, it seems to be a quite pervasive theme throughout the biblical texts, i.e. foreknowledge doesn't negate or deny one their free will. I think Paul goes so far as to suggest that in order for something to be foreknown it must be predestined, but this doesn't necessarily mean that what is predestinced is predestined by God or necessarily intended by God. It's just necessary that it be predestine in order to be foreknown. It's just a logical conclusion that must be drawn for what is forknown to remain foreknown.

The way I see it, like in the case of Judas, God knows Satan's tactics. They are repeated over and over again. Betrayal of a close friend is one of Satan's many tactics. Kings have had their own family members betray them. So betrayal is not new. It was Jehovah that made the decision that He was going to make one of Satan's own wicked plots to work for Him as a blessing. Of course at any time Satan could have stopped and given up his campaign against God. Then Jehovah would have found another way to complete His will. Yet Satan is delusional, because only a person that is delusional will think they can win a fight against Jehovah the Almighty. Allowing Satan to hatch his plot and also allowing the plot to continue to completion only to have that plot be mankind's salvation shows what a brilliant mastermind Jehovah God is and that no wicked plot, even a completed plot can stand against Jehovah's will.

It should be noted however as you said, Jehovah does allow a person freewill and will even allow them to follow through their whole plan to show what kind of person a person truly is. However, who can out maneuver Almighty God? No plot, even a completed one can derail His will. In fact, it appears He will take a person's wickedness, expose them and then use their own plot to His advantage.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 3 by rikuoamero]

I haven't thought n it out but this brings to mind Hosea the prophet and his wife what was her name? Gomer?

[dio9]

[Replying to post 4 by 2timothy316]

and his actions were not commanded to him by Jesus.

"“What you are about to do, do quickly.� "

Nor is there any indication that Jesus wanted Judas to betray him.

Jesus, according to the Bible, does nothing to stop Judas from "betraying" him (or cheating on him, to use ted's analogy) and in fact, according to Christianity, Judas had to "betray" Jesus to the authorities, otherwise Jesus couldn't/wouldn't be killed and resurrected, to fulfill the divine cosmic plan.

Yet, once Judas had put Satan's plan in motion, Jesus didn't stop that plan. Jesus wants his Father's will to take place.

To again use ted's analogy, this is the husband listening to his father telling him to allow the wife to sleep with other men. The wife's father-in-law has some plan in mind that requires the wife to engage in extra-marital intercourse.

This act of evil would be turned into a blessing for all of mankind.

So, it's not cheating. Also...did you just call something God planned/willed...evil? Seems to me that you did.

So is it still cheating? It most certainly is still cheating and in Judas' case, it's still betrayal. Even if Jesus had not said 'do it quickly' Judas still would have did what he set out to do.

How? Walk me through the analogy please.
You have a spouse. You and your father have a goal, some end to achieve, that you believe benefits all people, and that, in order for this to happen, your spouse has to engage in extra-marital sexual intercourse. You are fully aware that she is doing this, and that she plans to do it. You reveal to friends and family what your spouse is doing, what she plans to do. You tell her to do it, in front of family and friends.
I am not seeing where the betrayal/cheating is. In fact...what if your spouse did NOT engage in the extra-marital affair? What if she (or Judas) did not quote unquote betray her husband/Jesus? What if Judas had somehow, for whatever reason, not gone along with Satan? What if Judas had said "No, Master! I won't betray you! In fact, here, take and keep the coins! Fellow disciples, sit here with me and make sure I don't leave the house, don't give me an opportunity to identify our master to the authorities!"

This second point brings tomind the Gospel of Judas where Judas is presented as Jesus' most faithful apostle for if he had not betrayed his master what? we wouldnot have had the salvation through Jesus' passion.

[dio9]

As with many discussions on this site, this is a discussion based on nuanced definition. Betrayal is simply "the breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict". Intent is not necessary. In fact one can accidentally betray someone. Surprise is also not necessary. It is still betrayal whether the one betrayed knows of it or not. That said, I do not really understand the point. Is this a matter of questioning the word used, the placing of blame for the ensuing moral and psychological conflict, or something else?

The point is Jesus was betrayed. But if one knows whether a trust will be broken or not is it a betrayal or what?

[2timothy316]

This second point brings tomind the Gospel of Judas where Judas is presented as Jesus' most faithful apostle for if he had not betrayed his master what? we wouldnot have had the salvation through Jesus' passion.

There is a reason the 'Gospel of Judas' is not in the Bible cannon. It's not God-Breathed.

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand the intelligence of a spirit creature that has lived for who knows how long. If Judas had decided not to betray Jesus, Satan would have found another. There was no shortage of people that would have betrayed Jesus for money.

Would there have been salvation through Jesus' death if Judas had not sold Jesus out? The answer is yes. Judas was not some huge linchpin for salvation. He was more like pawn in a sea of pawns. Look at how many in the Jewish leadership hated Jesus. To say Judas was the only one in the whole nation of Jews that could have betrayed Jesus is silly. Matthew 12:14 says they conspired to kill him. This could have included any number of plans. They must have beside themselves with glee when one of Jesus' own disciples approached them. Think of plan by a far more intelligent being than that of a man like a GPS route. When a road is blocked it quickly reroutes the path. Satan could have has many routes to his destination has he wanted. What he was blind to was no matter what he plotted, the end result would seal his own judgement. Fulfilling the first prophecy told in Genesis 3:15. Satan's strike to Christ's heel would at the same time deal a crushing blow to Satan's head. Jehovah outwitted Satan in every way. There is no way a single person's decision such as Judas could have weighed so heavily as to the outcome.

[bluethread]

The point is Jesus was betrayed. But if one knows whether a trust will be broken or not is it a betrayal or what?

If a trust is broken it is a betrayal regardless of who knows what.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 12 by shnarkle]

good point snarkle. but who enters a marriage thinking their spouse may betray them? Would the perfect word of God not whole hardheartedly trust his disciple without doubt, with perfect trust ?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 17 by 2timothy316]

To say that we wouldn't have salvation because of a single man's decision such a person doesn't understand God.

God is incomprehensible, but the message Jesus proclaimed allowed for people to repent and bring the kingdom into being. Even after Jesus had died, the message of repentance is no less valid and the disciples proclaimed it again and again. The sacrifice is worthless to those who continue to ignore it. Without repentance it is meaningless. However, if the nation of Israel had received the kingdom, no sacrifice would have been necessary. Where there is no sin, there is no need for sacrifice.