What does it mean,

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 7:26 am

What does it mean, when some people say that "all Scripture is God breathed?

Does it mean that the Bible was dictated by God?

Inspired by God?

Does it mean that the Bible is perfect and infallible in every detail?

If you hold the position that the Bible is "God breathed" please define the term, and support your position.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon May 14, 2018 3:51 pm

Elijah John wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:Every word written in the Bible is God approved and thus can be trusted as coming from God.
Including the passage that gives permission for a slaveholder to beat their slaves half to death on the grounds the slave is the slaveholder's "property"?

Is Exodus 21.20-21 "God breathed" and approved as well?

I would think that a peaceful sect such as the Jehovah's Witnesses would disapprove of such practices.
Yes, Exodus 21:20-21 is 'God Breathed'. Exodus 20:1 "Then God spoke all these words:"

Who am I to disapprove of what Jehovah does or doesn't allow?
What is good or bad doesn't come from my opinions. I do not seek my ways. I seek God's ways. Yet have you ever heard of a JW beating their employees or owning a slave? Why do you think that is despite what you pointed to in Exodus?

Just because I'm commanded to being peaceful and follow it doesn't change the fact that I know that Jesus with God's army of angels is going to destroy the wicked of the earth. It is not my place to execute these folks or even have a say who is wicked or not. But this is His will and I will not disapprove of anything He sees fit.
So you are basically saying, (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the institution of slavery is part of "God's way", including all the connected brutality thereof?

And you're not the least bit uncomfortable with that notion that God supposedly approves of the keeping, and the beating of slaves?

How bout this...verses such as this are evidence that the Bible down to it's very last detail, is not "God breathed" and "God approved" at least not in it's entirety.

It just amazes me that instead of conceding tha the Bible is NOT perfect, and that every single word in the Bible is not from God, Fundamentalists attempt to defend the indefensible.

And your post here is a prime example of that.

Let me put it this way...how can it be that the same God who teaches us to love our neighbor as ourselves and to treat others the way we would like to be treated, would EVER approve of threating our fellow human beings like "property" up to and including depriving them of God-given freedom, and beating them half to death?

And how could the Same YHVH who despised slavery in Egypt, approve of slavery in Israel?

As I am sure you have had this discussion many times with others so I'm only going share two things. What people shouldn't do, one being, assuming that the Bible can't be trusted because they don't approve of how He handled the nation of Israel. The second is that "For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." - Rom 15:4.

If one can accept these and examine all things as 1 Corinthians 2:15 says, then that person will start to understand more about Jehovah then they ever thought possible. But if they get hung up on their own justice they will never grasp what it is that God is trying to 'instruct' us so that 'we might have hope'.

If one can't accept these things, then they should just keep going their own way like the majority of people. The ways of the God of the Bible will always seem foolish to him. (1 Cor 2:14) A person that seeks to understand God's ways loves Jehovah their God with their whole heart, whole mind and whole soul.

If He allowed slavery and punishment back then, then who are you or anyone to challenge it? All we can do is try to understand why He did. How does it 'instruct' us for our benefit? The Law code was not mankind's salvation and it was not meant to be the law for humans forever. Just think, even if you don't think that what was written in the Hebrew scriptures as right or a lie, Jehovah still let it happen. There is no record of Jehovah stopping it. Anything to the contrary of what the Bible says, means you're making up your own history with no collaborating historical record.

My suggestion is to study the Law of Moses. Why it was made and what was it's ultimate purpose. Also what it wasn't. By looking into these subjects a person will be 'examining all things'.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 4:25 pm

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Couple of things. I'm not "making up my own justice" but rather using Bible priinciples to refute a certain passage of the Bible. The Bible does contradict itself, as has been demonstrated on this site many times, and in many ways. And where the Bible does conflict, the tboughtful person is compelled to to choose sides, the more reasonable or the more barbaric. In attempting to defend the indefensible, seems Fundamentalist Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses, choose the more barbaric passages, and interpretations.

2nd, why do you treat the Bible as entirely from God, when it was compiled by humans? If you start with the assumption that the Bible is perfect, doesn't that inhibit your ability to look at it truthfully, and objectively? Especially in light of evidence of the imperfection of the Bible?

You speak as though the Bible dropped in tact from Heaven, perfect in every way. You KNOW that's not how it happened.

3rd. Do you think it's wise to use the Bible and this debating platform, (not a preaching site) to call people who disagree with you "unspiritual" and "foolish" simply because they do not view the Bible as you do?

Are we humans sinful just because we question certain parts of the Bible? What makes you so sure?

Is slavery one of the" spiritual things of Christ", that we foolish ones just don't understand?

Are you saying that only sinful people who hate God question some portions of the Bible?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon May 14, 2018 5:09 pm

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 5:30 pm

[Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

So, those who don't consider the Bible to be perfect, and those who don't agree with you, are persons "of the Flesh" who don't understand "Spiritual things"? "Spiritual things" like the beauty, benevolence and joyousness of the institution of slavery?

Was slavery ordained by God?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon May 14, 2018 5:44 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

So, those who don't consider the Bible to be perfect, and those who don't agree with you, are persons "of the Flesh" who don't understand "Spiritual things"? Things like the beauty, benevolence and joyousness of the institution of slavery?

See there's that wording again. As if everything in the Bible are my words. No one has to agree with me. They have to agree with Jehovah despite their man-type thinking.

Was slavery ordained by God?

Ordained, no. Allowed, yes obviously. There is no commandment in the Mosaic Law that one must own slaves. There is nothing in the Bible that says slavery was Jehovah's decree. Only what can and can't be done to them. Slavery was already established by the time the Law Code was written. Apparently Jehovah didn't see fit to abolish slavery at that time. So what are you going to do? Does this stumble you away from Jehovah?

Overcomer · Post by **Overcomer** » Mon May 14, 2018 5:57 pm

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 6:00 pm

[Replying to post 15 by 2timothy316]

Ordained or allowed, fair enough. Do you see any difference with what the Bible authors may have tolerated, and what God tolerated? Why do you equate the two, in each in every verse?

And still, If you are going to charge people who don't consider the Bible perfect, as "people of the flesh" and "unspiritual", does that include "Spiritual" things like slavery?

Do you consider slavery a "spiritual thing of God"?

Are those of us who question the supposed toleration of slavery by God, "of the Flesh" and "unspiritual"?

Do you think it is a good witness for Jehovah to tie Him in any way to the institution of slavery, except to repudiate it?

Do you suppose you are winning any converts to the Watchtower, by defending slavery? By defending the indefensible?

Is it your personal opinion, or the opinion of the Watchtower that slavery was once OK with God? Is it still OK with God?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon May 14, 2018 6:18 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 15 by 2timothy316]

Ordained or allowed, fair enough. Do you see any difference with what the Bible authors may have tolerated, and what God tolerated? Why do you equate the two, in each in every verse?

There must have been a difference. The Law didn't allow for the killing of slaves or maiming of slaves. Apparently, this was a problem before. Also, there was a provision that person could buy themselves back. Apparently, people back then would keep a person longer than Jehovah thought acceptable.

So here's some questions for you. If you are really having such a hard time with slavery, then what do you think about what happens today or what has happened for the past 3000 years? Look at all the bad things that people do. Why does Jehovah allow all the horrible things happening today to continue? Because He allows them to happen, are all of these things ordained? If you're having a hard time with slavery back then, is it a mind blower for you to see what God allows now?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon May 14, 2018 6:27 pm

Elijah John wrote:
Do you think it is a good witness for Jehovah to tie Him in any way to the institution of slavery, except to repudiate it?

Who am I to say what Jehovah wants as a witness? He makes those determinations. Apparently at that time, He found it acceptable that people tied to Him could own other people. That's all there is to it. Does this too stumble you?

Now is slavery acceptable under the Law of the Christ? The principle is clear, it exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31)

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon May 14, 2018 6:30 pm

[Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

We "approve" of slavery as practised 3000 years ago by faithful Jews under the Mosaic Law for the for the period during which that law was in force, since it was regulated by that Divine Law. And of course all JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are willing and happy to be slaves of God.

( Although someone with faith would understand it to be presumptuous to speak of "approving" any of God's actions)

JW