Does the Law provoke sin?

[Elijah John]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

[ttruscott]

Romans 3:20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

The verse you cite here Ted, is contradicted by Deuteronomy 30.15, the quote steveb1 provided in post #3.

There can be no contradiction within the bible...

Deut 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. is the giving of the law with promises for keeping it.

Romans tells us the reason for the giving of the law that history proves cannot be kept which I thought was the debate point - the claim that giving a law that cannot be kept is equal to using the law to create sinfulness.

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]



If you're asking, basically, "Would we have known not to sin if we weren't told not to sin." then I would say that's probably pretty accurate. Like telling a kid not to touch the hot stove if they've never seen a stove before; they'll likely touch it for the experience and out of curiosity.

[Elijah John]

There can be no contradiction within the bible...

An interesting starting point. Why do you take that position? Let's take this step by step

We just pointed out a major contradiction in the Bible. Simple denial is not refutation. There are many contradictions in the Bible, some minute, some major. Whole threads have been made here on this site illustrating this.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 11 by ttruscott]

Cannot be kept? Perhaps not perfectly and not at all times. But people can, and do keep the Law as a lifestyle. They live Godly lives based on Halacha. If they transgres from time to time, there is the provision of simple repentance and mercy from YHVH.

[onewithhim]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

I would say no, the Law didn't provoke sinful behavior. It simply showed humans what Jehovah's standards are, and it was a given that no one could ALWAYS measure up to these laws. We have inherited sin and fall into the snare of sin every day, sometimes in ways we aren't aware of. So that is why Jehovah issued the command that animals must be sacrificed as a way to show appreciation for the love and patience of God, until the Messiah would come, who was promised at Genesis 3:15.

Adam and Eve didn't have any written laws because they started out perfect, and they had constant communion with Jehovah.

No law existed at that time, but surely Adam and his family knew about Jehovah's feelings about life. Cain merely gave in to his own selfishness and jealousy and took out his anger on his brother.

[onewithhim]

Romans 3:20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

The verse you cite here Ted, is contradicted by Deuteronomy 30.15, the quote steveb1 provided in post #3.

So Paul is contradicting Moses and Jesus himself who said "if your would enter life, keep the commandments" and basically, the whole Jewish tradition, and the traditon of the apostles themselves.

If what Paul says in Romans 3.20 is true, why didn't Moses say this in the first place?

On the contrary, the Law is celebrated as life giving, and life affirming all through the Psalms, the Proverbs and basically the whole Tanakh!

Jesus only real beef with the law was that it should be embraced from the heart and not merely on a superficial, legalistic level. The Spirit of the Law was most important to Jesus, not just the letter.

Paul had a strange interpretation of the purpose of the Law, shared by no other Bible writer. (can you name any?)

Paul had the exact right idea, because he, as well as any Jew worth his salt, knew that the Law was a temporary thing to guide men until the appearance of the Messiah. If the Law COULD be kept to the letter, there wouldn't have been the requirement that Israel had to sacrifice certain animals for certain reasons at certain times. There was a "sin" offering, for the purpose of covering over the nation's sins, because no one could follow the Law perfectly.

They were expected to TRY, and their attitude would be the basis for forgiveness of their errors. They would hopefully try to do the best they could, and in the meantime offer sacrifices for their sins (which oftentimes they wouldn't even realize they were committing; nothing grossly evident, that is, that they would be conscious of, and sometimes the conscious sins would get the best of them and then they would hopefully repent).

[onewithhim]

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior? Is it's purpose only to demonstrate that we need a savior because the Law is supposedly impossible to keep?

How many laws existed in the Garden of Eden?

Was it the Law that provoked Cain to kill Abel?

Wasn't murder wrong even before the commandment forbiding it was given from Sinai?

Does the Law provoke sinful behavior?

The question, I believe,, comes from Paul, who may very well be one of the top 10 most difficult writers of all time.

Law (or commandment) may very have an ironic effect; Augustine writes about how how his desire to steal pears from an orchard came not from his desire for pears, but rather from is desire to overcome a prohibition.

Again, children told "do not eat a cookie from this jar until we have had dinner" may very well peer into the jar, only because it was told not to.

Commandments impose limitations and we do not like limitations.


No, the Law (that is, the contract with Israel) did not provoke Eve, or Cain, sin; the Law had not been in place.

He is difficult at times, but not impossibly so. We can understand Paul by means of Holy Spirit and Jehovah's earthly organization which is directed by Jesus and that Spirit.

[ttruscott]

There can be no contradiction within the bible...

An interesting starting point. Why do you take that position? Let's take this step by step

We just pointed out a major contradiction in the Bible. Simple denial is not refutation. There are many contradictions in the Bible, some minute, some major. Whole threads have been made here on this site illustrating this.

So, Christian refutations of the accusation of contradictions are 'simple denial' while secularist denials of our interpretations that there are no contradictions are erudite logic? Blinded by bias?

[Willum]

Good point, you can't break a law that isn't on the Books.
The commandments weren't written yet.

He wouldn't have been able to kill if immortality hadn't been withdrawn.

It wouldn't even be bad if death wasn't a punishment.
How would Cain know that death were bad?

Yep, in the beginning there, the story makes no sense. I mean even less sense.

[Elijah John]

There can be no contradiction within the bible...

An interesting starting point. Why do you take that position? Let's take this step by step

We just pointed out a major contradiction in the Bible. Simple denial is not refutation. There are many contradictions in the Bible, some minute, some major. Whole threads have been made here on this site illustrating this.

So, Christian refutations of the accusation of contradictions are 'simple denial' while secularist denials of our interpretations that there are no contradictions are erudite logic? Blinded by bias?

That's just the point, you didn't refute or reconcile the contradiction at all, you simply denied it. That is not debate.

You started with the biased premise that

"there can be no contradictions contained in the Bible"

. Please support the claim.

Actually, that would make a good thread in and of itself. Another good thread, that is.