When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

[micatala]

This thread is prompted by the often-made statement.

I have asked you to provide any evidence "from the Bible" (since you have offered that you are a priest), where sodomy/perderasty-homosexuality-Gay, is celebrated, supported, condoned, promoted, or preached as acceptable, anywhere in the New Testament

The implication is that, since the Bible nowhere promotes, condones, or 'celebrates' homosexuality, this is further indication it should be condemned.

Question for debate:

Is this a valid conclusion?

Are there other examples of behaviors, views, etc. that are not promoted, condoned, or celebrated in the Bible, but that Christians typically do not condemn?

[melikio]

[1John2_26]

Now we're talking. Comparing apples to apples. Defining homosexuality as a sin and wrong by comparing it to a sinful and wrong thing.

Quote:
1John2_26: Marriage (only man-woman according to Jesus) is not adultery.

Matt. [5:32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

So any woman who is divorced, is a fornicator, or an adulteress.
Also, whoever marries a divorced woman is committing adultery. Not just committing a single act of adultery, but engaging in an adulteress life style.

Matt. [10:12] And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

A divorced woman who remarries commits adultery (lives an adulterous life style).

Luke [16:18] Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Any man who divorces and remarries commits adultery, and any man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Awesome stuff. Have you read the Bible? It is clear that the greatest of sins and sinners, if they will onlly repent and change their evil ways will make out alright. The whole forgiveness thing is from beginning to end in the God-man relationship story known as the Bible.

2 Chronicles 7:14

And My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

So any man who remarries is an adulterer, any man who marries a divorced woman is an adulterer, in other words, divorce and remarriage always results in adultery. Not just a one time occurrence of adultery, but a life style of adultery.

Now don't get me wrong, Biblical accuracy is what I'm all about. Now those sinners that are sinners and have done wrong and are wrong . . . unless of course those people have humbled themselves and turned from their wicked ways. King David killed a man after commiting adultery with his wife, getting her pregnant and trying desperately to lie and cover it up. David thought about his evil this way:

Psalm 51
A Contrite Sinner's Prayer for Pardon.

A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
1Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
3For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
9Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
18By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Seems David wanted to be "born again."

Also, a man who divorces a woman, causes her to be an adulterer (or she was a fornicator), so divorce itself causes adultery.

Yup. No way to argue with facts. Forgiveness too.

The only time divorce would be acceptable, would be if neither were fornicators, they got divorced, and neither one ever got married or had sexual relations with someone else. This would be a small group of persons.

None that need Jesus needs to deal with then huh? Non-sinners don't need forgiveness.

Biblically (NT) speaking, any person who marries a divorced person, or is divorced and remarries, is just as sinful as a homosexual.
Can it be seen any other way?

No.

Anyone that does not repent stays where they are at.

[BeHereNow]

[melikio]

To be consistent, we would have to allow the same for homosexuals.

It's easy to find the hypocrisy (inconsistency) acceptable, when religious prejudice or personal BIAS is the only thing some have to justify their discrimination against homosexual people.

I've asked the same kinds of questions of heterosexuals that many self-righteous "Christians" have asked of homosexuals. They are usually dumbfounded (often indicated by staring blankly into space). For although they have been taught that most of what they do is "ok" ("highly-celebrated" behavior), the Bible could be used (but rarely is) to question those many things they believe/think are otherwise ok. That is to say, that the fundamentalists are relatively "soft" on sexual sin, when it's something that hits close to their own doorstep.

DIVORCE and/or marital infidelity is a MASSIVE problem, that is practically DWARFED by the undue and unreasonable HYPE that is heaped upon homosexuals and homosexuality. You see, it provides the "illusion"or "diversion" that some require, to move attention away from their own problems and project them upon something or someone else.

Homosexuals (if they are sinning), should only answer to their God or consciences (unless some victim is involved), but the hypocrites throughout time have seen fit to remove "love" from the Gospel intended for homosexuals, and on top of that, scapegoated homosexuals out of convenience at every turn. Now, these misguided or evil ideas (of fundamentalists) are being challenged at higher and higher levels; and their justification/s for mistreating homosexual people will eventually go the way of that which allowed for building empires and kingdoms, witch burning, and chattel slavery. Jesus did not come here and lay down His life, so that people could/would justify abusing one another.

As long as there is information and people can read, the lies and hype (over anything) will become easier to dispell in time.

Even so, I and most others aren't calling for some ridiculous Constitutional Amendment banning "HETEROSEXUAL DIVORCE" (or remarriage). I hate to refer to shows like "Divorce Court", "Judge Judy" or "Maury Povich" (I watch sometimes)... but those combined with divorce statistics makes enough of a case to say that most heterosexual people really do need to mind their own lives and "lifestyles" more readily than they do.

The Bible does give the best answer to most human problems (love), but so few catch onto it. And far more get onto the more "ego" based ideas/impressions that believing or knowing the Bible, somhow gives them the authority to control/manipulate the hearts, minds or lives of others (those they deem sinners) in God's name. When the clear reality is that they are actually allowed to follow the religion within their own personal lives to the utmost; it doesn't mean that they are to RULE over others. They are to set a loving example; not drag the name of God through the mud with their abject piety and pretentiousness.

God can/will deal with "sin" (John 3:16). It's not any human being's job, to "enforce" righteousness for God (only He can mold/change a person into His likeness). If the whole truth of the Gospel were truly left in the hands of some (such as many fundamentalist "Christians" seem to be), then God must truly have meant for His message to be questioned or rejected. I doubt that is the case, so I and many other people are left with questioning so-called evangelical "Christians" and the many political conservatives of the day.

Justice may often come from God through us (humans), but unless God placed some special papers in one's mailbox (lately) from His own heavenly desktop, zealots and other people need to be very humble about the range of authority they believe they have over other human beings (period).

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

[melikio]

Those homosexuals repenting and returning to the congregation of the Lord, it seems clear, could get married to any opposite sex partner that wanted to marry them.

What exactly do you mean by "repenting"? (What is a homosexual person to change or turn away from?)

I certainly don't think/believe a person can decide to NOT be homosexual (with few exceptions).

And what are they really retuning to, if there is nothing but a group of people who didn't accept them in the first place. Does repentance on the part of the homosexual somehow make the homosexual person "acceptable"?

You seem to always miss the real and practical point of common things. But I understand that, because you are taking a primarily religious view of reality and that affects what you are able to or are willing to regard as obvious evidence; your reality is limited to the width assigned by your "religion" (not science, not fact and not common sense).

I was once exactly where you are in that sense, but I pray to God that I don't "return" to that.

-Mel-

[BeHereNow]

[McCulloch]

Adultery is a relationship issue. It take certain actions by two individuals to commit adultery.
One person alone cannot commit adultery.

Personally, I agree with you. Jesus, however, said, "that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

[BeHereNow]

[micatala]

Biblically (NT) speaking, any person who marries a divorced person, or is divorced and remarries, is just as sinful as a homosexual.
Can it be seen any other way?

No.

Anyone that does not repent stays where they are at.

I see we have some agreement that both divorce and homosexuality should be considered 'equally sinful'. Both would require 'repentance' in that in both situations, the parties need to change what they are doing, the consequences of not doing so presumably being God's punishment, separation from God, etc.



Divorce and homosexuality are both examples which seem not to be condoned, and certainly not promoted or celebrated in the Bible. I think we are agree that the first is widely accepted or at least tolerated in most Christian churches, and the latter much less so. Both BHN and 1John seem to say that this is not right. Divorce should be condemned equally with homosexuality?

Why isn't it?




Also, what about the other examples cited?

Sex during menstruation.
Leviticus 20 wrote:
If there is a man who lies with a menstruous woman and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow, and she has exposed the flow of her blood; thus both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

Mixing cattle breeds, mixed seed sewing and mixed fibers.
Levitucus 19 wrote:
You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

Wrong length of hair
Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God which is at Corinth wrote:
Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

THese examples are different than the divorce example in that almost no one would consider these sinful. Why would we consider divorce and homosexuality sinful and not these?