A New Nation and a New Prophet: Re-examining Old- and New-Testament Texts

[mms20102]

In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

Friends, to keep the conversation clear and strictly text‑based, I propose we follow five prophetic milestones. After each milestone comes one focused question. Let’s address them in sequence—no flooding, no diversions, Scripture only.

• The Unrevoked Promise to Ishmael

Genesis 17 :20 – “As for Ishmael, I have heard you… I will make him a great nation.”
Nowhere is this promise annulled. Later, Isaiah envisions praise and accepted offerings from Kedar and Nebaioth (Isa 42 :11; 60 :6‑7).

Q‑1: Through what historical development does that “great nation” promise reach its intended fullness?

• Paran—A Second Dawn of Revelation

Deuteronomy 33 :2 – “The LORD… shone forth from Mount Paran.”
Habakkuk 3 :3 repeats the scene. Paran lies in the Arabian wilderness.

Q‑2: Which later revelation best satisfies the description of God’s light shining from Paran?

• The Prophet “Like Moses” (Deut 18 :15‑19)

Key features:

risen after Moses,

bearer of a decisive law,

must be listened to on pain of judgment.


Q‑3: Who, according to the canonical texts, most completely matches that profile?

• The Comforter / Spirit of Truth (John 14‑16)

Jesus promises “another Comforter” who will come only after His departure, “speak what he hears,” and guide into all truth.
The Holy Spirit was already active before the Ascension (Luke 3 :22; John 20 :22).

Q‑4: Who is the promised Comforter - distinct messenger who completes universal guidance?

• The Stone‑Kingdom & “A Nation Producing Its Fruit”

Daniel 2 ends with a Stone that shatters the statue‑empires and becomes a mountain filling the earth (Dan 2 :34‑35, 44‑45).
Jesus echoes the hand‑over:
“The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.” (Matt 21 :43)

Q‑5: Which empires did the “Stone” of Daniel’s vision topple, and today, which nation best displays the fruits Jesus spoke of—justice, a lived‑out revealed law, and unwavering devotion to the one God?




Guidelines

1. One question at a time. We start with Q‑1; only after it’s answered do we move to Q‑2.


2. Primary texts only—Torah, Prophets, Gospels, Qur’an. No tertiary links.


3. Keep it concise. One tight paragraph beats a page of quotations.


Supporting verses about a coming prophet from Quran

"Our Lord! Raise from among them a messenger who will recite to them Your revelations, teach them the Book and wisdom, and purify them. Indeed, You ˹alone˺ are the Almighty, All-Wise.” (Abraham and Ishmael) Q 2:129

"Just like We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know." Q 2:151


"when Allah made a covenant with the prophets, ˹saying,˺ “Now that I have given you the Book and wisdom, if there comes to you a messenger confirming what you have, you must believe in him and support him.” He added, “Do you affirm this covenant and accept this commitment?” They said, “Yes, we do.” Allah said, “Then bear witness, and I too am a Witness with you.” Q 3:81


"the ones who follow the Messenger, the unlettered [Gentile] Prophet, whose description they find in their Torah and the Gospel. He commands them to do good and forbids them from evil, permits for them what is lawful and forbids to them what is impure, and relieves them from their burdens and the shackles that bound them. those who believe in him, honor and support him, and follow the light sent down to him will be successful."
Q 7:157




"It is He who has sent among the unlettered [Gentiles] a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error"
Q 62:2





May God help us seek truth and never shame us for doing so.

[1213]

Genesis 17 :20 – “As for Ishmael, I have heard you… I will make him a great nation.”
Nowhere is this promise annulled. Later, Isaiah envisions praise and accepted offerings from Kedar and Nebaioth (Isa 42 :11; 60 :6‑7).

Q‑1: Through what historical development does that “great nation” promise reach its intended fullness?

When the number of the people is great.

[mms20102]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

Nice to see you again

1. The phrase “great nation” (גּוֹי גָּדוֹל / goy gadol) in Genesis 17:20 cannot mean just large in number.
While “great” may include numerical growth, in the biblical context it often implies more—such as influence, legacy, spiritual distinction, and divine favor.

For example, Genesis 12:2: God tells Abraham, “I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great.” Clearly, “great” here is not just about quantity, but moral and historical significance.

Deuteronomy 4:7-8 also uses the term “great nation” for Israel—not merely due to population size, but because of its nearness to God and righteous laws.

2. Isaiah’s references to Kedar and Nebaioth (Isaiah 42:11; 60:6–7) suggest spiritual inclusion and acceptance of their worship. That points to a “greatness” that culminates not in empire, but in divine acknowledgment.

“All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you… they shall come up with acceptance on My altar…” (Isaiah 60:7)

This vision implies that Ishmael’s descendants will offer pleasing worship to God, something spiritually “great” rather than demographically dominant.

Otherwise, sheer numbers would make China and India the most spiritually favored nations—which we both know is not true.

[1213]

1. The phrase “great nation” (גּוֹי גָּדוֹל / goy gadol) in Genesis 17:20 cannot mean just large in number.
While “great” may include numerical growth, in the biblical context it often implies more—such as influence, legacy, spiritual distinction, and divine favor.
...

Sorry, I don't see Biblical reason to think it implies something more than just large number.

Otherwise, sheer numbers would make China and India the most spiritually favored nations—which we both know is not true.

Also, large number doesn't necessary mean "most spiritually favored nations". For example because the number that will be saved will be smaller than the number of those who will not be saved.

But Isaiah cries on behalf of Israel, "If the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved."
Romans 9:27
For many are called, but few chosen.
Matt. 22:14

[mms20102]

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]

Sorry, I don't see Biblical reason to think it implies something more than just large number.

You're absolutely right that large numbers alone don’t automatically equal spiritual favor—Romans 9:27 and Matthew 22:14 confirm that. But that actually supports my point: greatness in the biblical sense must mean something deeper than mere population size.

So let’s walk with that together.

You said you “don’t see a biblical reason” to define “great nation” (goy gadol) as anything beyond sheer numbers.

But now I’m curious—what do you believe are the biblical markers of a nation being considered great in God’s eyes? Would it be:

Righteousness? (e.g., “Righteousness exalts a nation…” – Proverbs 14:34)

God’s nearness? (e.g., “What great nation is there that has a god so near to it…” – Deut. 4:7)

Law and justice? (e.g., “What great nation has statutes and rules so righteous…” – Deut. 4:8)

Being a blessing to others? (e.g., “In you all nations of the earth shall be blessed…” – Gen 12:3)

All of these suggest that biblical greatness is qualitative before it is quantitative.

If not those, then what would you accept as biblical criteria for a nation being called “great” in God’s eyes?

[1213]

But now I’m curious—what do you believe are the biblical markers of a nation being considered great in God’s eyes? Would it be:

Righteousness? (e.g., “Righteousness exalts a nation…” – Proverbs 14:34)

God’s nearness? (e.g., “What great nation is there that has a god so near to it…” – Deut. 4:7)

Law and justice? (e.g., “What great nation has statutes and rules so righteous…” – Deut. 4:8)

Being a blessing to others? (e.g., “In you all nations of the earth shall be blessed…” – Gen 12:3)

All of these suggest that biblical greatness is qualitative before it is quantitative.

If not those, then what would you accept as biblical criteria for a nation being called “great” in God’s eyes?

In the case of the promise for Ismael, I don't think there was anything else than the number. But, you have a good point, there can also be other kind of greatness also. And this leads to question, has the nation, that came from Ismael, the righteousness that could exalt? How is it visible?

[mms20102]

[Replying to 1213 in post #6]

You’re absolutely right to ask: Has Ishmael’s nation shown the kind of righteousness that exalts a people? It’s a vital question, because the greatness God speaks of—biblically—is not merely in numbers, but in nearness to Him, justice, and upright conduct.

Let me offer a reflection in response:

1. Righteousness and worship of the One God:
The descendants of Ishmael—especially through the line historically traced to Arabia—established a society where the worship of the One God was reaffirmed globally. Millions, today, uphold pure monotheism, daily prayers, fasting, almsgiving, and a deep communal ethic rooted in scripture.

2. Moral code and law:
From the 7th century onward, a complete legal and ethical system based on scripture was implemented—governing trade, justice, family, and public conduct. The Qur’an, like the Torah, addresses both moral purity and social justice. Isn't this consistent with Deut. 4:8—“What great nation has statutes so righteous…”?

3. Blessing to others:
The Abrahamic call was that through him, all nations would be blessed. Consider this: the descendants of Ishmael preserved belief in all the major biblical prophets—including Moses and Jesus—and called others back to worship God alone. That’s not a small thing in the span of history.

So, to your question: Has it been visible?
Yes—it’s visible in the preservation of monotheism, in the ethical structure of societies influenced by this lineage, and in the global spread of values centered on accountability to God and service to others.

And I ask sincerely: if not this, what other post-biblical nation more clearly fulfills those prophetic standards of righteousness, nearness to God, and spiritual blessing?

[1213]

1. Righteousness and worship of the One God:
The descendants of Ishmael—especially through the line historically traced to Arabia—established a society where the worship of the One God was reaffirmed globally. Millions, today, uphold pure monotheism, daily prayers, fasting, almsgiving, and a deep communal ethic rooted in scripture.

It seems to me that Muslims are worshiping the Kaaba stone. I think it goes against the God's rules and is unrighteous.

2. Moral code and law:
From the 7th century onward, a complete legal and ethical system based on scripture was implemented—governing trade, justice, family, and public conduct. The Qur’an, like the Torah, addresses both moral purity and social justice. Isn't this consistent with Deut. 4:8—“What great nation has statutes so righteous…”?

If they have the same rules as in the Bible, I think it is righteous. By what I see, they don't have the same rules, otherwise they would be called Jews or Christians.

3. Blessing to others:
...called others back to worship God alone.

I think that is nice.

And I ask sincerely: if not this, what other post-biblical nation more clearly fulfills those prophetic standards of righteousness, nearness to God, and spiritual blessing?

I don't think there is any nation that does so. But there can be many people who are righteous and loyal to the God.

[mms20102]

1. Righteousness and worship of the One God:
The descendants of Ishmael—especially through the line historically traced to Arabia—established a society where the worship of the One God was reaffirmed globally. Millions, today, uphold pure monotheism, daily prayers, fasting, almsgiving, and a deep communal ethic rooted in scripture.

It seems to me that Muslims are worshiping the Kaaba stone. I think it goes against the God's rules and is unrighteous.

2. Moral code and law:
From the 7th century onward, a complete legal and ethical system based on scripture was implemented—governing trade, justice, family, and public conduct. The Qur’an, like the Torah, addresses both moral purity and social justice. Isn't this consistent with Deut. 4:8—“What great nation has statutes so righteous…”?

If they have the same rules as in the Bible, I think it is righteous. By what I see, they don't have the same rules, otherwise they would be called Jews or Christians.

3. Blessing to others:
...called others back to worship God alone.

I think that is nice.

And I ask sincerely: if not this, what other post-biblical nation more clearly fulfills those prophetic standards of righteousness, nearness to God, and spiritual blessing?

I don't think there is any nation that does so. But there can be many people who are righteous and loyal to the God.

I agree to everything you say as long as you start providing sources not words

[1213]

1. Righteousness and worship of the One God:
The descendants of Ishmael—especially through the line historically traced to Arabia—established a society where the worship of the One God was reaffirmed globally. Millions, today, uphold pure monotheism, daily prayers, fasting, almsgiving, and a deep communal ethic rooted in scripture.

It seems to me that Muslims are worshiping the Kaaba stone. I think it goes against the God's rules and is unrighteous.
...

I agree to everything you say as long as you start providing sources not words

Is this image a good source for the "It seems to me that Muslims are worshiping the Kaaba stone"?



And it is against this:

You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exod. 20:3-6