A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

[LittlePig]

And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.

Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either.

Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.

Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.

Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?

[bernee51]

Actually, scientists just found evidence of sea life on mountain peaks and they're wondering how they got there.

They don't 'wonder'. They determine facts - like the fact that the Himalayan range is a mere 30 milion tyears old and have been and aer continuing to be pushed up by India slamming into Asia.

That's definitely evidence of a global Flood.

"definately'? You sound like you have proof. Please present it.

But since they reject the Flood even though there are over 200 accounts from ancient peoples of a global flood where one family survived,...

This is a claim unsupported by evidence. Please present some evidnce for this claim.

[Carico]

Actually, scientists just found evidence of sea life on mountain peaks and they're wondering how they got there.

They don't 'wonder'. They determine facts - like the fact that the Himalayan range is a mere 30 milion tyears old and have been and aer continuing to be pushed up by India slamming into Asia.

That's definitely evidence of a global Flood.

"definately'? You sound like you have proof. Please present it.

But since they reject the Flood even though there are over 200 accounts from ancient peoples of a global flood where one family survived,...

This is a claim unsupported by evidence. Please present some evidnce for this claim.

Looking at a Himalayan range and claiming that the world was once covered in ice is as speculative as looking at a forest and claiming that the world was once covered in trees! So sorry, but despite what scientists say, the imagination isn't evidence.

Here is one site of accounts of a global flood.



Since Noah's Ark landed in the mountains of Ararat (the mountains rose at the close of the Flood), it is not surprising that Noah's progeny migrated down the new Tigris River valley from the mountains to found the earliest post-Flood civilizations such as Sumer, Akkad, Uruk, and Nimrud (which later became Babylon), Haran, Jericho, and Sidon (Phoenicia), and more distantly, Egypt and the Indus Valley of N.W. India. (The Tigris and the Euphrates rivers were named after two of the four pre-Flood rivers mentioned in the Bible that flowed from the Garden of Eden.)

On Perched Island LandingAncient Babylonian legend speaks of a pre-Flood series of ten kings, the ancient Hindus (N.W India) spoke about a series of Ten Pitris who ruled before the global Flood, and the ancient Egyptians described Ten Shining Ones who ruled consecutively before the Deluge. Like the Bible also says, these pre-Flood patriarchs lived much longer than we do, and this was confirmed by the ancient historians Berosus, Nicolaus of Damascus, Hesiod, Plato, Hecataeus, Mochus, Hieronymus, and Manetho.

The last of these kings in the aforementioned lists was the hero who led seven others aboard a vessel in which they survived the global Flood. In ancient Babylon, the hero's name was Zisudra who spear-headed the survival on the Ark of seven other humans, the Seven Apkallu. In ancient Egypt, the Flood hero was Toth who survived the Deluge along with the Seven Sages. In ancient N.W. India, the hero was Manu who survived the global-Flood "pralaya" with the Seven Rishis. The odds are astronomically long that these supposedly distinct civilizations would have the same legend of a global Flood with eight people surviving from the pre-Flood population that was led by a series of ten kings if it were not real history that happens to corroborate the Genesis account.

And the odds become even longer that Noah's Flood is not an historical fact when one considers the hundreds of tribes from around the world that have ancestral knowledge of the global Flood. And yet, we are expected to ignore this overwhelming evidence because it contradicts current mainstream science and archaeology. Also expected of us to ignore are the many ancient legends from various people-groups that corroborate the Biblical account of the confusion of language at the Tower of Babel where Nimrod (also known as Menrot, Marduk, Merodach, Ninus, Sargon, Shun, Bacchus, and Zarathustra) led an act of defiance against God about 150 years after the Flood which devastated the earth around 2400 B.C.

There are many other ancient historical factors, as well as a plethora of geophysical, biological and anthropological indications that support the Genesis rendering of ancient history which can be gleaned from a variety of resources, such as my book Old Earth? Why Not! The accuracy of Genesis is further attested to therein by an analysis of the ancient Biblical names that were thought to be mythological until modern archaeology confirmed their historicity, names such as Haran, Ur, Nahor, Serug, and the Hittites.

Thanks to modern archaeology, these Biblical Hittites were confirmed to be non-mythological, and were discovered to have also had a legend about the global Flood, the same Deluge recounted in a legend from the Tamils of southern India which was survived by again eight people, Satyavrata (Noah), Sharma (Shem), Charma (Ham), Japati (Japheth), and their wives. The Tamils apparently migrated from the Indus River valley to the south around 1500 B.C. when the Ice Age ice-pack melted because of climatic changes at that time which caused the sea-level to rise about 300 feet, with both inducing migrations of people-groups (such as the Aryans from the north, who moved into the Indus Valley and displaced the Tamil people who already were losing ground to the encroaching ocean at that time).

Warmer than today's ocean-water must have been the evaporation source for the dense cloud-cover that caused the Ice Age, and the source of that warmer ocean-water was the "fountains of the deep" for Noah's Flood. Many ancient Flood legends do speak of water and magma hissing and venting-up through fissures in the earth's crust to cause the Flood, like described in Genesis. This hot-water from below mixed with the pre-Flood ocean-water to inundate the continents (as indicated by the sedimentary strata on the continents), and thereafter settled in the deepened post-Flood basins

Reasonable explanations for the cause of the Ice Age are not forthcoming from old-earth-believing scientists because they do not realize that significantly warmer ocean-water (which caused dense cloud-cover from higher ocean-evaporation rates) must have been the cause of the Ice Age, there is no other viable mechanism that could have resulted in the dense cloud-cover necessitated. When the post-Flood ocean cooled sufficiently, the Ice Age ended around 1500 B.C., which is confirmed by submerged megalithic structures off N.W. India, S. India, and S.W. Japan that were engulfed by the sea when the Ice Age ice-pack melted.

Hundreds of tribal legends and ancient accounts from Egypt, Babylon, and the Indus confirm the account of Noah's Flood from the book of Genesis. These tribes and ancient cultures obviously had no interest in copying a Hebrew account about a global Flood, therefore, all of these accounts must have been independently derived by the various people-groups' ancestors from the eight who were on the vessel that endured the global Flood. When the eight reproduced and spread out across the Middle East, and soon thereafter, much of the world (as some were demonstrably excellent mariners), the memory of the worldwide Flood was retained, and to a not-surprisingly great degree.

James I. Nienhuis is a writer and speaker. www.GenesisVeracity.com


If you want more, then do your research. I've found that the secular world almost never researches the bible. They prefer to ignore it, indulge in their imaginations and make up their own stories.

[bernee51]

Actually, scientists just found evidence of sea life on mountain peaks and they're wondering how they got there.

They don't 'wonder'. They determine facts - like the fact that the Himalayan range is a mere 30 milion tyears old and have been and aer continuing to be pushed up by India slamming into Asia.

That's definitely evidence of a global Flood.

"definately'? You sound like you have proof. Please present it.

But since they reject the Flood even though there are over 200 accounts from ancient peoples of a global flood where one family survived,...

This is a claim unsupported by evidence. Please present some evidnce for this claim.

Looking at a Himalayan range and claiming that the world was once covered in ice is as speculative as looking at a forest and claiming that the world was once covered in trees!

Where have I claimed this.

You cannot make things up yourself and then claim I stated it.

So sorry, but despite what scientists say, the imagination isn't evidence.

So far it is YOU who has displayed an active imagination.

Here is one site of accounts of a global flood.


James I. Nienhuis is a writer and speaker. www.GenesisVeracity.com

An apologist website is not evidence of anything other than apologetics.

If you want more, then do your research. I've found that the secular world almost never researches the bible.

That is because the bible – like all other so called sacred scriptures is not a history book – other than a history of human belief and mythology.

[Carico]

Actually, scientists just found evidence of sea life on mountain peaks and they're wondering how they got there.

They don't 'wonder'. They determine facts - like the fact that the Himalayan range is a mere 30 milion tyears old and have been and aer continuing to be pushed up by India slamming into Asia.

That's definitely evidence of a global Flood.

"definately'? You sound like you have proof. Please present it.

But since they reject the Flood even though there are over 200 accounts from ancient peoples of a global flood where one family survived,...

This is a claim unsupported by evidence. Please present some evidnce for this claim.

Looking at a Himalayan range and claiming that the world was once covered in ice is as speculative as looking at a forest and claiming that the world was once covered in trees!

Where have I claimed this.

You cannot make things up yourself and then claim I stated it.

So sorry, but despite what scientists say, the imagination isn't evidence.

So far it is YOU who has displayed an active imagination.

Here is one site of accounts of a global flood.


James I. Nienhuis is a writer and speaker. www.GenesisVeracity.com

An apologist website is not evidence of anything other than apologetics.

If you want more, then do your research. I've found that the secular world almost never researches the bible.

That is because the bible – like all other so called sacred scriptures is not a history book – other than a history of human belief and mythology.

They don't 'wonder'. They determine facts - like the fact that the Himalayan range is a mere 30 milion tyears old and have been and aer continuing to be pushed up by India slamming into Asia.

How do they know that the Himalayan range wasn't always there? They can't know how far away that range was from Asia. they can only imagine. Since they throw out the flood simply because it's in the bible, then they can't date anything back farther than the Flood since they can't know what the affects of millions of gallons of water has on an object. So their dating methods are very inaccurate which is why they're constantly trying to improve them. You believe anything you read and never challenge it. That's how myths become popular.


Sorry but a website doesn't determine the truth or falsehood of statements. If someone says the world is flat, he's wrong regardless of which website he's at! All you do is prove me right that you determine truth or falsehood by someone's credibility rather than facts and logic.

[bernee51]

How do they know that the Himalayan range wasn't always there?

The geological differences between India and Asia and the similarities between India and the Australasian plate (known as Gondwanaland)

Have you studied plate tectonics?

Is it mentioned in the bible?

They can't know how far away that range was from Asia. they can only imagine.

Ant you know better because…?

Since they throw out the flood simply because it's in the bible, ….

The ‘flood’ is discredited because the evidence does not support a world wide flood – ‘to the tops of the mountains’

You believe anything you read and never challenge it. That's how myths become popular.

Yep – just like the Jesus myth.

All you do is prove me right that you determine truth or falsehood by someone's credibility rather than facts and logic.

What the web site you copied from does is an exercise in interpretation of assumed facts – i.e. the very imagination you have been accusing ‘scientists’ of indulging in.

[Carico]

How do they know that the Himalayan range wasn't always there?

The geological differences between India and Asia and the similarities between India and the Australasian plate (known as Gondwanaland)

Have you studied plate tectonics?

Is it mentioned in the bible?

They can't know how far away that range was from Asia. they can only imagine.

Ant you know better because…?

Since they throw out the flood simply because it's in the bible, ….

The ‘flood’ is discredited because the evidence does not support a world wide flood – ‘to the tops of the mountains’

You believe anything you read and never challenge it. That's how myths become popular.

Yep – just like the Jesus myth.

All you do is prove me right that you determine truth or falsehood by someone's credibility rather than facts and logic.

What the web site you copied from does is an exercise in interpretation of assumed facts – i.e. the very imagination you have been accusing ‘scientists’ of indulging in.

How do you know that Asian and the Himalayas weren't created that way? the answer is that you don't. So you need to learn the difference between facts and speculation.

quote]The ‘flood’ is discredited because the evidence does not support a world wide flood – ‘to the tops of the mountains’

Wrong again. Scientists just discovered evidence of ancient sea animals on the mountain peaks. And they are confused because they throw out the Flood even though there is no other rational explanation. But again, they refuse to believe the bible so they're in the process of making up their own stories (which they haven't finished yet). I'm sure they'll be very entertaining. So the evidence of a flood is there. But scientists deliberately ignore it.
[/quote]

[bernee51]

How do you know that Asian and the Himalayas weren't created that way? the answer is that you don't.

How do you know the universe was not created last Thursday?

So you need to learn the difference between facts and speculation.

I need to learn many things. In fact I know an infinitely small amount of all there is to know.

Why do you speculate on the existence of a god/man 2000 years ago.

quote]The ‘flood’ is discredited because the evidence does not support a world wide flood – ‘to the tops of the mountains’

Wrong again.

You are very opinionated aren't you?

Scientists just discovered evidence of ancient sea animals on the mountain peaks.

And you assume a flood?

What an imagination!

And they are confused because they throw out the Flood even though there is no other rational explanation.

They throw the flood out because it is not a rational explanation.

You, with no obvious understanding of it, dismiss the evidence and work over many many years of countless 1000's of scienists because you believe in a mythical story that originated with Bronze age nomads.

And you claim the high ground of rationality.

What a joke!

[Carico]

How do you know the universe was not created last Thursday?

Is this a serious question? If you don't know whether or not the universe was created last Thursday then it's a simple matter of Christ's statement that every matter must be established by 2 or 3 witnesses. Not only do I have witnesses in my house, but we have millions of accounts of our ancestors of the last 6,000 years. We have zero accounts, on the other hand, of the universe being older than that from anyone in history. So the stories of scientists come only from their imaginations. Point proven.

[bernee51]

How do you know the universe was not created last Thursday?

Is this a serious question? If you don't know whether or not the universe was created last Thursday then it's a simple matter of Christ's statement that every matter must be established by 2 or 3 witnesses.

God, being all powerful, could have created the universe last Thursday along with all the history etc. we assume to have happened. And you would be none the wiser.

Prove he did not.

Not only do I have witnesses in my house, but we have millions of accounts of our ancestors of the last 6,000 years.

All made up by god to make it all look 6000 years old when it is really less then a week old.

We have zero accounts, on the other hand, of the universe being older than that from anyone in history. So the stories of scientists come only from their imaginations. Point proven.

No point has been proven other than your belief in bronze age tales.

You don't even have any evidence nor proof of this god of yours to offer.

It is all speculation, all imagination.

Man has been imagining gods since he first asked the question 'who am I?

History, archeology, sociology, psychology and anthropology all point to the fact that the god concept and religious belief has evolved over many thousands of years.

[McCulloch]

How do you know the universe was not created last Thursday?

Is this a serious question? If you don't know whether or not the universe was created last Thursday then it's a simple matter of Christ's statement that every matter must be established by 2 or 3 witnesses. Not only do I have witnesses in my house, but we have millions of accounts of our ancestors of the last 6,000 years. We have zero accounts, on the other hand, of the universe being older than that from anyone in history. So the stories of scientists come only from their imaginations. Point proven.

I think that you miss the point of Last-Thursdayism. You see, if God created the universe less than 10,000 years ago, consistent with a literal reading of the Bible, then it appears as if God has made the universe in such a way as to make us think that it is older than it is. The evidence of geology, biology and cosmology all lead us to believe that the earth, live and the universe are all orders of magnitude older than the biblical claim.

But, since God is all powerful, there is nothing stopping God from creating stars billions of light-years away with their light already streaming towards earth when he created them on the fourth day. There is nothing stopping God from creating fossils of trilobites which appear to be older than the earth itself. In fact, there is nothing stopping God from creating the entire universe last Thursday, with all of our memories in place, so that we believe that we ourselves are older than the universe.

The point of this explanation is to show that if you resort to God's miracles every time you run into a logistic problem with your biology, history, geology or cosmology, then you can prove anything and nothing.