A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

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A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

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Post by LittlePig »

otseng wrote:
goat wrote:
otseng wrote:
LittlePig wrote: And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.
Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either. ;)
Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.
Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.
Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?
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Post #241

Post by otseng »

I found a diagram of the sequence of events for the SG explanation for the Siccar Point Angular Unconformity.

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http://www3.interscience.wiley.com:8100 ... r01-3.html

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Post #242

Post by otseng »

If we look strictly at steps 1-3, the sequence is layering, deformation, and erosion. This fits with the FM prediction. And does not fit with the SG prediction.

The next question then is the step from 3 to 4.

According to SG, the Silurian layers were deposited around 425 mya. The Devonian layers were deposited about 345 mya. This is a difference of 80 my. So, some questions presents itself. How could a flat surface have been eroded away? How could it be flat after erosion for 80 million years? There was also probably a significant amount of material that needed to be eroded away since the layers are now vertical into the ground. What process could have eroded such a large amount of rock and have it end up flat? Further, to the right of the piece of Devonian rock is an outcrop that was not eroded flat.

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Post #243

Post by otseng »

Here is another picture that shows that the outcrop was not eroded flat.

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http://www.albion.edu/geology/SCOTPICS.asp

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Post #244

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otseng
If we look strictly at steps 1-3, the sequence is layering, deformation, and erosion. This fits with the FM prediction. And does not fit with the SG prediction..
Yes it would if an ice sheet had traveled over it. It may not fit with your oversimplification of the SG, but the actual theory could easily explain such a formation.
The next question then is the step from 3 to 4.

According to SG, the Silurian layers were deposited around 425 mya. The Devonian layers were deposited about 345 mya. This is a difference of 80 my. So, some questions presents itself. How could a flat surface have been eroded away? ..How could it be flat after erosion for 80 million years?
An ice sheet traveling over it.
There was also probably a significant amount of material that needed to be eroded away since the layers are now vertical into the ground. What process could have eroded such a large amount of rock and have it end up flat?
An ice sheet does exactly that, in some conditions. Besides, as you point out next, it isn't all flat, is it?
Further, to the right of the piece of Devonian rock is an outcrop that was not eroded flat.
An ice sheet also diverts around higher ground all the time. Take a look at any glacier flowing around obstacles, leaving them untouched while scouring the valleys clean and largely flat(or flatish). You also have to take into account the ages of water erosion, it is, after all, being exposed to wind/wave action even today.

The FM can not explain the varied forms we see, it can not explain the segregation of fossils, it can not explain the ages of the various layers and it can not explain the history of the Earth written in the rocks.

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Post #245

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otseng wrote:If we look strictly at steps 1-3, the sequence is layering, deformation, and erosion. This fits with the FM prediction. And does not fit with the SG prediction.

The next question then is the step from 3 to 4.

According to SG, the Silurian layers were deposited around 425 mya. The Devonian layers were deposited about 345 mya. This is a difference of 80 my. So, some questions presents itself. How could a flat surface have been eroded away? How could it be flat after erosion for 80 million years? There was also probably a significant amount of material that needed to be eroded away since the layers are now vertical into the ground. What process could have eroded such a large amount of rock and have it end up flat? Further, to the right of the piece of Devonian rock is an outcrop that was not eroded flat.
How does a flood explain deformation? How can water, however massive an amount, move huge rock formations around? Can we observe this happening today?

We can observe slow techtonic forces today.
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Post #246

Post by otseng »

Grumpy wrote:
The next question then is the step from 3 to 4.

According to SG, the Silurian layers were deposited around 425 mya. The Devonian layers were deposited about 345 mya. This is a difference of 80 my. So, some questions presents itself. How could a flat surface have been eroded away? ..How could it be flat after erosion for 80 million years?
An ice sheet traveling over it.
The ice sheet would've had to erode it nearly flat for an extensive area. Also, from my understanding, gravity is the main force for ice movement on land. And the flatter the surface, the lower the force of gravity to move the ice.

Also just meters away from Hutton's Unconformity, it obviously was not eroded flat. How could that be accounted for? Why would the ice sheet "go around" that spot? Are there any other spots that the ice sheet went around?
An ice sheet also diverts around higher ground all the time.
Looking at steps 2-3, it was all higher ground at that time. That is, the original height of the rock before erosion was higher than it is now. And all of that was eroded down.

Supposing it was ice that caused the erosion, would this have happened above sea level?

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Post #247

Post by otseng »

micatala wrote:How does a flood explain deformation? How can water, however massive an amount, move huge rock formations around? Can we observe this happening today?
I touched on this earlier.

Basically, the deformations is caused in the crust buckling phase. Water did not cause deformations, but crustal plate movement.
The major land mountain ranges were formed as the water under the crust diminished. While there was water, the crust was free to move since water has a low friction coefficient. But once the water was gone, the crust hit the basalt underneath. With the large friction coefficient, the crust started to buckle. The crust had a huge lateral momentum as it was sliding away from the mid-Oceanic ridge. The momentum caused the crust to form the Rockies, Appalachians, Andes, Himalayas, etc.
This same buckling caused the deformations in step 2.

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Post #248

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Sorry but do you have any data to back up that speculation? I mean, the under-crust water chambers aren't just unfounded they are actually impossible.

If they were below the crust (which would be required for them to account for continental drift the water would have mixed with the mantle. Doesn't make any sense.

The "pre-flood" condition must have had NO deviation in surface elevation as I shall prove:

The 4th order differential equation of elastic sheet load is

d4z
D ---- + (pm-pw)zg = P(x)
dx4

where P(x) is the load as a function of horizontal distance, z is the displacement of the load, g is the acceleration of gravity, pm is the density of the crust, pw is the density of water, D= ET3 /(12(1-sig2 ) where E is Young's modulus, 1011 dynes/cm2, sig is Poison's ratio, .25, and T is the thickness of the crustal layer into which the load sinks. For a two dimensional load with a 1/2 width, A, the flexure of the crust is

z max= h(ps-pw)(1-e-LA cos(LA))/(pm-ps)

where L= 4th root((pm-pw) g)/(4D))

With a crust thickness of 5 km (5x105 cm) sig= .25, E= 1011 we have

D = 1.1 x 1028

L = 4.37 x 10-7

Now for a mountain 10 km (1 x 106 cm) in radius and 5 km (5 x 105 cm) in height (h), the minimum thickness of the crust must be 5 x 105 (2.1-1) (1-e-LA cos(LA))/(2.65-2.1) = 1.1 x 106 cm = 4.1 km. The bending of the crust by 4.1 km will occur by fracture as the crust is not flexible enough. This would immediately release the water. Thus, there are no mountains. Even a hill 1 km high would require that the crust bend by 830 metres.

This contradicts the biblical account as it says even the high mountains are covered.

What would the pressure of the water be?

Suppose you placed the water under only 10 km of crust (the crust is 50km thick in reality), the pressure of the water would be 10 x 105 * 980 * 2.65 = 2.58 x 10^9 dynes= 2562 atmospheres of pressure. The temperature gradient is 1 deg C for every 30 m so there is a 166 deg. C increase in temperature as we go deeper. 330 + 30 deg C (the surface temperature) =360 deg. C. For a layer of cave water 2 km thick all around the earth would contain 1 x 1024 cubic centimetres of water. At 360 deg C, the high temperature water would contain 3.3 x 1026 calories. (1 calorie per degree rise (330 degree rise)). The minute the pressure is released the water will turn to steam and you will cook the earth. Dividing the calories by the surface area of the earth shows that heat /cm2 = 3.3 x 1026 Calories/5.09 x 1018 square centimeters = 6.4 x 10^7 Cal/cm2.

That is the equivalent of 60 years worth of sun heating on one square cm instantaneously. Everything would COOK not be flood - it is enough energy to raise water to 64,000,000 degrees (at 1Cal/degree).

A final note is made about this:

"On final item. I have seen the IPOD seismic line, from the continent out into the Atlantic mid oceanic ridge, every inch of it, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF ANY RESIDUAL BURIED WATER OR DEEPLY BURIED CAVE TO HOLD THE WATER. There are no indications of collapse structures of the size your model would require anywhere on any seismic data I have ever examined in the past 25 years.

I would also point out that there is a type of seismic wave, called a shear wave which doesn't travel through water. In Brown's scenario, there would be no way to absolutely eliminate all the subterranean water. As the crust collapsed, rubble would block the escape route for some of the water. Given that shear waves don't travel through liquids, those of us in the seismology business should be able to find places where shear waves don't travel to the receivers. If the water is shallow, it would only block a few seismology stations.

But, we don't find any places in the shallow earth which won't transmit shear waves. That is very strong evidence that there is no residual water remaining under the crust."


http://home.entouch.net/dmd/hydroplate.htm

Consider the Hydroplate Flood Theory debunked.

A little closer to home is a piece about the Orkney Islands:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/orkney.htm
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Post #249

Post by Grumpy »

otseng
The major land mountain ranges were formed as the water under the crust diminished. While there was water, the crust was free to move since water has a low friction coefficient. But once the water was gone, the crust hit the basalt underneath. With the large friction coefficient, the crust started to buckle. The crust had a huge lateral momentum as it was sliding away from the mid-Oceanic ridge. The momentum caused the crust to form the Rockies, Appalachians, Andes, Himalayas, etc.
The Himalayas are probably the youngest mountain range, then the Rockies, the Andes and the Appalachians are the oldest(by quite a lot). They were not formed within even 10s of millions of years of each other, much less formed overnight. The Appalachians, in particular, have undergone hundreds of millions of years of erosion and were ancient when dinosaurs did not yet exist.
The ice sheet would've had to erode it nearly flat for an extensive area. Also, from my understanding, gravity is the main force for ice movement on land. And the flatter the surface, the lower the force of gravity to move the ice.
So??? Time is one thing this Earth has had in abundence. 4.5 billion years is nearly one third of the time that the Universe itself has existed, the total amout of time itself has existed. In comparison, the time to the supposed flood event is but a blink of an eye. As is the total time man has been aware enough to invent the concepts of gods and to concoct the myths about the world.
Also just meters away from Hutton's Unconformity, it obviously was not eroded flat. How could that be accounted for? Why would the ice sheet "go around" that spot? Are there any other spots that the ice sheet went around?
Again, So??? I do not know the details of what the geology of that particular spot is, and I would not presume to try to read the history of the area represented by the limited photos I have seen of it. To try to extract a widely applicable rule from such limited data seems really foolish to me. I just would recognize that each area and feature is like it is due to the history and the forces that area or feature has experienced, and each must be carefully studied to ascertain that history and those forces. But to try to say the FM explains everything and it does not fit with standard geology is the height of foolishness. The errors of fact and interpretation of the limited knowledge I have seen so far from your argument borders on the ridiculous. Examples...


The water canopy is just physically impossible.

The "Undersurface waters" is impossible as well.

The Mid Atlantic ridge is not an artifact of water erruption, but is the seam of volcanic activity that is driving Europe and North America apart to this day. Iceland is a land of fire and ice because of this activity.

There is no worldwide evidence of a flood, as there IS of an impact event 65 million years ago that wiped out the dinosaurs.

I could go on and on, but basically you are basing your explanations of the history of the Earths geological changes on a myth of a flood and seem willing to twist or invent the facts to fit that myth, no matter how outlandish and unscientific. So this is not a scientific debate on our part, but an attempt to disuade you from your delusions about what is reality, while you try to persuade us that your delusions are scientifically valid when they clearly are not.

Grumpy 8-)
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Post #250

Post by otseng »

Scotracer wrote:Sorry but do you have any data to back up that speculation? I mean, the under-crust water chambers aren't just unfounded they are actually impossible.
The deepest well in the world, the Kola Superdeep Borehole, went to a depth of 40,230 ft. What did they find down there? Water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole
where E is Young's modulus, 1011 dynes/cm2, sig is Poison's ratio, .25, and T is the thickness of the crustal layer into which the load sinks.
What rock did he use for Poisson's ratio of .25? How was Young's modulus determined? I converted his value to 1450377 psi. That would place it with the same value as Young's modulus for wood.
Brown's scenario, there would be no way to absolutely eliminate all the subterranean water.
I would agree with that. There should be some residual water left. And one evidence of it is from the Kola borehole.

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