A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

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LittlePig
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A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

Post #1

Post by LittlePig »

otseng wrote:
goat wrote:
otseng wrote:
LittlePig wrote: And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.
Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either. ;)
Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.
Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.
Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?
"Well thanks a lot, Plato." - James ''Sawyer'' Ford
"Don''t flip ya lid." - Ricky Rankin

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Post #1111

Post by micatala »

otseng wrote:I was hoping that I'd be able to carry on two debates at the same time, but it doesn't look like I'll be able to. Since I'm currently engaged in a high profile head-to-head debate, I'm going to take a hiatus from this topic for now. I hope to resume this after the h2h debate ends.

For the curious, the debate is at: Which is more rational? God is real or imaginary?

Acknowledged.



I may make a post or two based on what we find at Sideling Hill in the Appalachians, based on the recently posted links, but will go no further than that until your return, or until such time as someone else takes up the cause of the FM.

:D
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Post #1112

Post by TheMessenger »

Scotracer wrote:I'd like to see the "Flood Model" account for the fact that there has never been any (not even 1 single instance) of a fossil found out with the layer it is expected to be found, according to the Geological model and Evolutionary Theory.

Also I'd like to see what prediction it can make and any evidence that these has been fulfilled.
1968 Utah trilobite fossils found in a fossilized human footprint. The two are suppose to be separated by 230 million years. There's 1.

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Post #1113

Post by Goat »

TheMessenger wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I'd like to see the "Flood Model" account for the fact that there has never been any (not even 1 single instance) of a fossil found out with the layer it is expected to be found, according to the Geological model and Evolutionary Theory.

Also I'd like to see what prediction it can make and any evidence that these has been fulfilled.
1968 Utah trilobite fossils found in a fossilized human footprint. The two are suppose to be separated by 230 million years. There's 1.

This is discussed here, in the site call 'bad archeology'. which corrects bad information from lots of sources.

In other words, this claim is inaccurate.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/data/ooparts/antelope.php
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #1114

Post by bernee51 »

TheMessenger wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I'd like to see the "Flood Model" account for the fact that there has never been any (not even 1 single instance) of a fossil found out with the layer it is expected to be found, according to the Geological model and Evolutionary Theory.

Also I'd like to see what prediction it can make and any evidence that these has been fulfilled.
1968 Utah trilobite fossils found in a fossilized human footprint. The two are suppose to be separated by 230 million years. There's 1.
Ah that would be the Meister Print

The conclusion of paleontologists regarding this:

"...the trilobites in the specimen are real enough, but the "print" itself appears to be due solely to inorganic, geologic phenomena. After mainstream rebuttals of this find were published in the 1980's (Conrad, 1981; Stokes, 1986; Strahler, 1987), only a few creationists continued to suggest this was a real print, while most former advocates of the specimen have quietly abandoned the case..."
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

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Post #1115

Post by TheMessenger »

Goat wrote:
TheMessenger wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I'd like to see the "Flood Model" account for the fact that there has never been any (not even 1 single instance) of a fossil found out with the layer it is expected to be found, according to the Geological model and Evolutionary Theory.

Also I'd like to see what prediction it can make and any evidence that these has been fulfilled.
1968 Utah trilobite fossils found in a fossilized human footprint. The two are suppose to be separated by 230 million years. There's 1.

This is discussed here, in the site call 'bad archeology'. which corrects bad information from lots of sources.

In other words, this claim is inaccurate.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/data/ooparts/antelope.php
And what makes that article superior to mine?

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Post #1116

Post by bernee51 »

TheMessenger wrote:
Goat wrote:
TheMessenger wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I'd like to see the "Flood Model" account for the fact that there has never been any (not even 1 single instance) of a fossil found out with the layer it is expected to be found, according to the Geological model and Evolutionary Theory.

Also I'd like to see what prediction it can make and any evidence that these has been fulfilled.
1968 Utah trilobite fossils found in a fossilized human footprint. The two are suppose to be separated by 230 million years. There's 1.

This is discussed here, in the site call 'bad archeology'. which corrects bad information from lots of sources.

In other words, this claim is inaccurate.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/data/ooparts/antelope.php
And what makes that article superior to mine?
Sorry - I must have missed your link to an article...could you provide it again?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #1117

Post by TheMessenger »

bernee51 wrote:
TheMessenger wrote:
Goat wrote:
TheMessenger wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I'd like to see the "Flood Model" account for the fact that there has never been any (not even 1 single instance) of a fossil found out with the layer it is expected to be found, according to the Geological model and Evolutionary Theory.

Also I'd like to see what prediction it can make and any evidence that these has been fulfilled.
1968 Utah trilobite fossils found in a fossilized human footprint. The two are suppose to be separated by 230 million years. There's 1.

This is discussed here, in the site call 'bad archeology'. which corrects bad information from lots of sources.

In other words, this claim is inaccurate.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/data/ooparts/antelope.php
And what makes that article superior to mine?
Sorry - I must have missed your link to an article...could you provide it again?
Seeing as my original claim has only been denied and not dis-proven, an article is not necessary.

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Post #1118

Post by nygreenguy »

TheMessenger wrote: Seeing as my original claim has only been denied and not dis-proven, an article is not necessary.
Done. Real trilobites, not a real foot print. From to:
The specimen does contain at least two real trilobites (which are abundant in the outcrops around Antelope Springs), but the supposed sandal print does not stand up to close scrutiny. The overall shape is seen to consist of a spall pattern in a concretion-like slab, similar to many others in the area. There is no evidence that it was ever part of a striding sequence, nor that it was ever on an exposed bedding plane, as real prints would be. The "print" is very shallow and shows no sign of pressure deformation or foot movement at its margin. However, on one side of the print, extending to the side of the supposed toe end is a rim or lip that is typical of similar concretions from the area, but which is incompatible in position and form to be a pressure ridge. Also, of the two halves of rock, the side that has the heel indented shows raised relief at the toe end, and vice versa, whereas in a real print one should show impression or raised relief throughout each half.

The supposed "heel" demarcation is actually a crack that runs beyond the boundary of the supposed print. It is best seen on the far left side as one views the print in the photograph herein. The slight relief difference at this point is due to slight movement along the crack line (Conrad, 1981 ; Stokes, 1986).

Similar concretionary shapes and spall patterns are abundant in the Wheeler formation, as are slabs showing concentric oval shapes of varying color, sometimes with stair-step like relief. Several other of these oblong features have also been interpreted as possible human prints (Cook, 1970), but are even less convincing than the Meister specimen (Conrad, 1981). None occur in striding trails or otherwise meet the scientific criteria by which genuine human prints are reliably identified. The geochemical processes such as solution penetrations, spalling, and weathering which form such features in fissile rocks of the Wheeler formation was discussed in considerable detail by Stokes (1986).

Several such "pseudo-prints" from Antelope Springs were sent to me in the early 1980's by creationist biologist Ernest Booth. One showed both an ovoid spall pattern similar to the Meister print, and another a color-distinct ovoid pattern without topographic relief. Booth expressed dismay that fellow creationists had not explained that such superficially print-like features were abundant at the site, and were products of geological phenomena and not real prints (Booth, 1982).

Some creationists have noted that the find was "confirmed" by "Dr. Cook." However, Dr. Cook was a metallurgist with little paleontological experience or knowledge. In his own report on the find Cook states, "...I am by no means an authority on fossils and footprints." He adds that the print seems to "speak for itself". However, upon careful inspection the evidence does not support Cook's conclusions.

In short, the trilobites in the specimen are real enough, but the "print" itself appears to be due solely to inorganic, geologic phenomena. After mainstream rebuttals of this find were published in the 1980's (Conrad, 1981; Stokes, 1986; Strahler, 1987), only a few creationists continued to suggest this was a real print, while most fromer advocates of the specimen have quietly abandoned the case.

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Post #1119

Post by TheMessenger »

nygreenguy wrote:
TheMessenger wrote: Seeing as my original claim has only been denied and not dis-proven, an article is not necessary.
Done. Real trilobites, not a real foot print. From to:
The specimen does contain at least two real trilobites (which are abundant in the outcrops around Antelope Springs), but the supposed sandal print does not stand up to close scrutiny. The overall shape is seen to consist of a spall pattern in a concretion-like slab, similar to many others in the area. There is no evidence that it was ever part of a striding sequence, nor that it was ever on an exposed bedding plane, as real prints would be. The "print" is very shallow and shows no sign of pressure deformation or foot movement at its margin. However, on one side of the print, extending to the side of the supposed toe end is a rim or lip that is typical of similar concretions from the area, but which is incompatible in position and form to be a pressure ridge. Also, of the two halves of rock, the side that has the heel indented shows raised relief at the toe end, and vice versa, whereas in a real print one should show impression or raised relief throughout each half.

The supposed "heel" demarcation is actually a crack that runs beyond the boundary of the supposed print. It is best seen on the far left side as one views the print in the photograph herein. The slight relief difference at this point is due to slight movement along the crack line (Conrad, 1981 ; Stokes, 1986).

Similar concretionary shapes and spall patterns are abundant in the Wheeler formation, as are slabs showing concentric oval shapes of varying color, sometimes with stair-step like relief. Several other of these oblong features have also been interpreted as possible human prints (Cook, 1970), but are even less convincing than the Meister specimen (Conrad, 1981). None occur in striding trails or otherwise meet the scientific criteria by which genuine human prints are reliably identified. The geochemical processes such as solution penetrations, spalling, and weathering which form such features in fissile rocks of the Wheeler formation was discussed in considerable detail by Stokes (1986).

Several such "pseudo-prints" from Antelope Springs were sent to me in the early 1980's by creationist biologist Ernest Booth. One showed both an ovoid spall pattern similar to the Meister print, and another a color-distinct ovoid pattern without topographic relief. Booth expressed dismay that fellow creationists had not explained that such superficially print-like features were abundant at the site, and were products of geological phenomena and not real prints (Booth, 1982).

Some creationists have noted that the find was "confirmed" by "Dr. Cook." However, Dr. Cook was a metallurgist with little paleontological experience or knowledge. In his own report on the find Cook states, "...I am by no means an authority on fossils and footprints." He adds that the print seems to "speak for itself". However, upon careful inspection the evidence does not support Cook's conclusions.

In short, the trilobites in the specimen are real enough, but the "print" itself appears to be due solely to inorganic, geologic phenomena. After mainstream rebuttals of this find were published in the 1980's (Conrad, 1981; Stokes, 1986; Strahler, 1987), only a few creationists continued to suggest this was a real print, while most fromer advocates of the specimen have quietly abandoned the case.
Again, this proves nothing. Once again, one persons opinion versus another. One scientist says this while another says the opposite. Feel free to pick a side. I have.

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Post #1120

Post by nygreenguy »

TheMessenger wrote:
nygreenguy wrote:
TheMessenger wrote: Seeing as my original claim has only been denied and not dis-proven, an article is not necessary.
Done. Real trilobites, not a real foot print. From to:
The specimen does contain at least two real trilobites (which are abundant in the outcrops around Antelope Springs), but the supposed sandal print does not stand up to close scrutiny. The overall shape is seen to consist of a spall pattern in a concretion-like slab, similar to many others in the area. There is no evidence that it was ever part of a striding sequence, nor that it was ever on an exposed bedding plane, as real prints would be. The "print" is very shallow and shows no sign of pressure deformation or foot movement at its margin. However, on one side of the print, extending to the side of the supposed toe end is a rim or lip that is typical of similar concretions from the area, but which is incompatible in position and form to be a pressure ridge. Also, of the two halves of rock, the side that has the heel indented shows raised relief at the toe end, and vice versa, whereas in a real print one should show impression or raised relief throughout each half.

The supposed "heel" demarcation is actually a crack that runs beyond the boundary of the supposed print. It is best seen on the far left side as one views the print in the photograph herein. The slight relief difference at this point is due to slight movement along the crack line (Conrad, 1981 ; Stokes, 1986).

Similar concretionary shapes and spall patterns are abundant in the Wheeler formation, as are slabs showing concentric oval shapes of varying color, sometimes with stair-step like relief. Several other of these oblong features have also been interpreted as possible human prints (Cook, 1970), but are even less convincing than the Meister specimen (Conrad, 1981). None occur in striding trails or otherwise meet the scientific criteria by which genuine human prints are reliably identified. The geochemical processes such as solution penetrations, spalling, and weathering which form such features in fissile rocks of the Wheeler formation was discussed in considerable detail by Stokes (1986).

Several such "pseudo-prints" from Antelope Springs were sent to me in the early 1980's by creationist biologist Ernest Booth. One showed both an ovoid spall pattern similar to the Meister print, and another a color-distinct ovoid pattern without topographic relief. Booth expressed dismay that fellow creationists had not explained that such superficially print-like features were abundant at the site, and were products of geological phenomena and not real prints (Booth, 1982).

Some creationists have noted that the find was "confirmed" by "Dr. Cook." However, Dr. Cook was a metallurgist with little paleontological experience or knowledge. In his own report on the find Cook states, "...I am by no means an authority on fossils and footprints." He adds that the print seems to "speak for itself". However, upon careful inspection the evidence does not support Cook's conclusions.

In short, the trilobites in the specimen are real enough, but the "print" itself appears to be due solely to inorganic, geologic phenomena. After mainstream rebuttals of this find were published in the 1980's (Conrad, 1981; Stokes, 1986; Strahler, 1987), only a few creationists continued to suggest this was a real print, while most fromer advocates of the specimen have quietly abandoned the case.
Again, this proves nothing. Once again, one persons opinion versus another. One scientist says this while another says the opposite. Feel free to pick a side. I have.
this isnt opinion. This is the analysis of people who study this stuff and are experts in the field.

what you are doing here is essentially making your point of view totally unfalsifiable. There is literally zero evidence I could realistically provide that would convince you otherwise.

With that said, why do you even bother here? If you refuse to honestly listen or honestly engage with anyone else here, why do you continue wasting our time?

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