What I learned from a 1937 World Atlas

[DeBunkem]

Saw an actual tamper-proof printed US World Gazette from 1937 at a friend's house this weekend. Nobody had an agenda when the map was published beyond showing the geographic facts. While "Israel Firsters" celebrate their depth of ignorance on geography and land ownership, I'll just briefly describe what I saw. The general borders of PALESTINE were as they are shown today in the maps of the Occupied Zones and the Arab Ghettos and bantustans. However, it included lands on the E. side of Jordan. First, it blasted the Zionist myth of "a Land without People for a People without Land." Arab towns and villages cover PALESTINE from border to border. "Israel" is nowhere mentioned, and did not exist. Even the ones with Jewish names had Arab names in parenthesis, but these were few. "British Protectorate" was printed across the map. A brief note in the index indicated a very high Arab population, with a much lower number of Jews, but added that "Jewish colonies are growing." We expect this to be true because of the flight of Jews from Europe and Russia. Jerusalem was divided into FOUR sections: Jewish, Moslem, Christian, and "Armenian" (Orthodox). Some other ancient names such as Edom and Ammon were mentioned.
That was PALESTINE in 1937. I can easily get the publisher info for anyone who thinks the geographical facts are made up.

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend
in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before
Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." : John
Sheehan, S.J. (a Jesuit priest)

Meanwhile:

Legitimization of land theft

The theft of private land and lawless construction, with the authorities' collaboration, have long been routine in the land of the settlers.

Haaretz Editorial http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... t-1.214201

The theft of private land and lawless construction, with the authorities' collaboration, have long been routine in the land of the settlers. The scope of these deeds and their seriousness are described extensively in the report on illegal outposts compiled by Talia Sasson, formerly a senior state prosecution attorney. The report was buried almost two years ago.

However, the decision of the Supreme Planning Council (SPC) for Judea and Samaria, which was revealed in Haaretz on Sunday, to legitimize the plan to build the Matityahu East neighborhood in Modi'in Ilit, beyond the Green Line, marks a nadir.

The plan is to legitimize 42 high-rises, which are in various stages of construction, some of them on land allegedly stolen from the villagers of Bil'in. All of the high-rises being built contravene the planning and construction laws. Peace Now and Bil'in's residents petitioned the High Court of Justice two years ago to have construction stopped. The legal counsel of Modi'in Ilit warned in writing of "construction offenses of such colossal proportions, ignoring the law and planning regulations, that words cannot describe [them]."

Following the petition, with the support of the State Prosecution, the High Court ordered a halt to construction and to the neighborhood's occupancy more than a year ago. At that time the prosecution instructed the police to open an investigation into those involved in the affair.

The authorities responsible for enforcing the region's planning and building laws knew what was going on and turned a blind eye. Instead, they recently decided to legitimize it retroactively.

Matityahu East is the latest in a series of such affairs in which the separation barrier, supposedly serving Israel's security needs, is used to annex West Bank territory to expand the settlements. The defense minister is dragging his feet on everything concerning the evacuation of illegal outposts. At the same time, bodies he is responsible for - led by the civil administration - are colluding in land grabbing and legitimizing illegal construction throughout the West Bank....More...

The Israeli press has more freedom to speak the truth about land theft than the AIPAC-controlled US media, it would seem.

[DeBunkem]

The pertinent parts here are that Israel is in violation of international law, which negates any oddly anachronistic (but only for Israeli claims) acceptance of armed conquest and agression as legitimate. I wonder if the same sentiment would hold if Syria suddenly invaded occupied Palestine, beat the IDF, and imprisoned or expelled all Jewish resistance.
Chomsky gets right to the point on legitimate brokering of peace by questioning the US as a broker, a farcical idea in itself. would Israel be pleased if Iran was brokering this process?

The Charade of Israeli-Palestinian Talks

By Noam Chomsky

December 07, 2010 --- Washington’s pathetic capitulation to Israel while pleading for a meaningless three-month freeze on settlement expansion—excluding Arab East Jerusalem—should go down as one of the most humiliating moments in U.S. diplomatic history.

In September the last settlement freeze ended, leading the Palestinians to cease direct talks with Israel. Now the Obama administration, desperate to lure Israel into a new freeze and thus revive the talks, is grasping at invisible straws—and lavishing gifts on a far-right Israeli government.

The gifts include $3 billion for fighter jets. The largesse also happens to be another taxpayer grant to the U.S. arms industry, which gains doubly from programs to expand the militarization of the Middle East.

U.S. arms manufacturers are subsidized not only to develop and produce advanced equipment for a state that is virtually part of the U.S. military-intelligence establishment but also to provide second-rate military equipment to the Gulf states—currently a precedent-breaking $60 billion arms sale to Saudi Arabia, which is a transaction that also recycles petrodollars to an ailing U.S. economy.

Israeli and U.S. high-tech civilian industries are closely integrated. It is small wonder that the most fervent support for Israeli actions comes from the business press and the Republican Party, the more extreme of the two business-oriented political parties. The pretext for the huge arms sales to Saudi Arabia is defense against the “Iranian threat.�

However, the Iranian threat is not military, as the Pentagon and U.S. intelligence have emphasized. Were Iran to develop a nuclear weapons capacity, the purpose would be deterrent—presumably to ward off a U.S.-Israeli attack.

The real threat, in Washington’s view, is that Iran is seeking to expand its influence in neighboring countries “stabilized� by U.S. invasion and occupation.

The official line is that the Arab states are pleading for U.S. military aid to defend themselves against Iran. True or false, the claim provides interesting insight into the reigning concept of democracy. Whatever the ruling dictatorships may prefer, Arabs in a recent Brookings poll rank the major threats to the region as Israel (88 percent), the United States (77 percent) and Iran (10 percent).

It is interesting that U.S. officials, as revealed in the just-released WikiLeaks cables, totally ignored Arab public opinion, keeping to the views of the reigning dictators.

The U.S. gifts to Israel also include diplomatic support, according to current reports. Washington pledges to veto any U.N. Security Council actions that might annoy Israel’s leaders and to drop any call for further extension of a settlement freeze.

Hence, by agreeing to the three-month pause, Israel will no longer be disturbed by the paymaster as it expands its criminal actions in the occupied territories.

That these actions are criminal has not been in doubt since late 1967, when Israel’s leading legal authority, international jurist Theodor Meron, advised the government that its plans to initiate settlements in the occupied territories violated the Fourth Geneva Convention, a core principle of international humanitarian law, established in 1949 to criminalize the horrors of the Nazi regime.

Meron’s conclusion was endorsed by Justice Minister Ya’akov Shimson Shapira, and shortly after by Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, writes historian Gershom Gorenberg in The Accidental Empire.

Dayan informed his fellow ministers, “We must consolidate our hold so that over time we will succeed in `digesting’ Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and merging them with `little’ Israel,� meanwhile “dismember(ing) the territorial contiguity� of the West Bank, all under the usual pretense “that the step is necessary for military purposes.�

Dayan had no doubts, or qualms, about what he was recommending: “Settling Israelis in occupied territory contravenes, as is known, international conventions,� he observed. “But there is nothing essentially new in that.�
Dayan’s correct assumption was that the boss in Washington might object formally, but with a wink, and would continue to provide the decisive military, economic and diplomatic support for the criminal endeavors.

The criminality has been underscored by repeated Security Council resolutions, more recently by the International Court of Justice, with the basic agreement of U.S. Justice Thomas Buergenthal in a separate declaration. Israel’s actions also violate U.N. Security Council resolutions concerning Jerusalem. But everything is fine as long as Washington winks.

Back in Washington, the Republican super-hawks are even more fervent in their support for Israeli crimes. Eric Cantor, the new majority leader in the House of Representatives, “has floated a novel solution to protect aid for Israel from the current foreign aid backlash,� Glenn Kessler reports in The Washington Post: “giving the Jewish state its own funding account, thus removing it from funds for the rest of the world.�

The issue of settlement expansion is simply a diversion. The real issue is the existence of the settlements and related infrastructure developments. These have been carefully designed so that Israel has already taken over more than 40 percent of the occupied West Bank, including suburbs of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv; the arable land; and the primary water sources of the region, all on the Israeli side of the Separation Wall—in reality an annexation wall.

Since 1967, Israel has vastly expanded the borders of Jerusalem in violation of Security Council orders and despite universal international objection (including the U.S., at least formally).

The focus on settlement expansion, and Washington’s groveling, are not the only farcical elements of the current negotiations. The very structure is a charade. The U.S. is portrayed as an “honest broker� seeking to mediate between two recalcitrant adversaries. But serious negotiations would be conducted by some neutral party, with the U.S. and Israel on one side, and the world on the other.

It is hardly a secret that for 35 years the U.S. and Israel have stood virtually alone in opposition to a consensus on a political settlement that is close to universal, including the Arab states, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (including Iran), and all other relevant parties.

With brief and rare departures, the two rejectionist states have preferred illegal expansion to security. Unless Washington’s stand changes, political settlement is effectively barred. And expansion, with its reverberations throughout the region and the world, continues.

© The New York Times Syndicate

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e27019.htm

[DeBunkem]

DeBunkem:

You continue to use the phrase "stolen land" as a baseline assumption and a claim of fact; but you seem curiously unable to respond to -- excuse me, I must correct myself; to ACKNOWLEDGE THE EXISTENCE OF -- this material, which I shall do you the courtesy of posting yet again here. Notice the multiple links.

Further, on the oft-repeated allegation that the Israelis “stole Palestinian land�:

Look here, here, and here; Note this:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Look HERE, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The idea that Israel was “stolen� from the Arabs is, simply put, a myth; and the proof of that, as I keep saying without response or acknowledgment, is that very many Arabs did not leave during the War of Independence; they remained in Israel, were left in peace, and they and their descendants live in Israel today. Arabs in Israel own land, do business, vote, serve in the Knesset, worship freely, and live as full, peaceful and participatory citizens of their nation. Other than Tunisia and Morocco, are there Jews in Arab countries who can say that? Will there be Jews who may do that in the Judenrein Palestinian state?

And, from yet another post:

The idea that the Israelis brutally invaded Palestine, murdered thousands of Arabs, and drove them off their ancestral lands is simply untrue. There were atrocities, but those occurred on both sides; and the FACT is that the Arab refugees who left Israel were welcome to return in 1948. That’s a matter of record, and the reasons it didn’t happen are not the fault of the Israelis.

From Resolution 194 of the United Nations General Assembly, passed on December 11, 1948, before the end of the War of Independence: Notice the portion marked in boldface.

Article 11 reads:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

The Arab nations initially opposed this resolution, and few Arabs took the offer, specifically because of the refusal of the nations which attacked Israel to accept peace. Any Arabs who wanted to come home at the very beginning could have done so. Claiming that the “right of return� should extend two generations into the future, when a few hundred thousand refugees -- carefully and deliberately made to remain refugees for 62 years, unlike any “refugees� in human history anywhere in the world -- have multiplied into millions, and still have no intention of “living in peace with their neighbours,� is beyond ridiculous, no matter how heavily that idea is promoted in the Arab world.

I wouldn't presume to claim that you CAN'T respond to this material; perhaps you haven't had time.

After all, it's only been posted since Sunday, November 14.

And, of course, I must conclude, once again, with this list of OTHER facts which you have, to date, consistently refused to acknowledge or comment upon in any way, refusing even to acknowledge or comment on their repeated posting. I have decided to begin posting them in green. You know, like Kryptonite.

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated quotes clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.

First, I note that your first source is just another Zionist disinfo mill, of which there are ever more flooding the Net. I do not accept it as a neutral source, and certainly not able to present "Palestine FACTS" I presume that the rest of the post is similarly larded with Zionist revisionist "FACTS." But I will nonetheless, as time allows, proceed to answer it. No need to mention that there are similar disinfo sites for extremist Palestinian views. If you cannot accept the UN and other neutral parties, this is an exercise in futility, as most attempts to decide the true owners of the "Holy Land" have been throughout history. Abrahamic fanatic religions are peculiarly blind to the "FACTS" even when they are staring them in the face.

[micatala]

DeBunkem:

You continue to use the phrase "stolen land" as a baseline assumption and a claim of fact; but you seem curiously unable to respond to -- excuse me, I must correct myself; to ACKNOWLEDGE THE EXISTENCE OF -- this material, which I shall do you the courtesy of posting yet again here. Notice the multiple links.

Further, on the oft-repeated allegation that the Israelis “stole Palestinian land�:

Look here, here, and here; Note this:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Look HERE, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The idea that Israel was “stolen� from the Arabs is, simply put, a myth; and the proof of that, as I keep saying without response or acknowledgment, is that very many Arabs did not leave during the War of Independence; they remained in Israel, were left in peace, and they and their descendants live in Israel today. Arabs in Israel own land, do business, vote, serve in the Knesset, worship freely, and live as full, peaceful and participatory citizens of their nation. Other than Tunisia and Morocco, are there Jews in Arab countries who can say that? Will there be Jews who may do that in the Judenrein Palestinian state?

And, from yet another post:

The idea that the Israelis brutally invaded Palestine, murdered thousands of Arabs, and drove them off their ancestral lands is simply untrue. There were atrocities, but those occurred on both sides; and the FACT is that the Arab refugees who left Israel were welcome to return in 1948. That’s a matter of record, and the reasons it didn’t happen are not the fault of the Israelis.

From Resolution 194 of the United Nations General Assembly, passed on December 11, 1948, before the end of the War of Independence: Notice the portion marked in boldface.

Article 11 reads:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

The Arab nations initially opposed this resolution, and few Arabs took the offer, specifically because of the refusal of the nations which attacked Israel to accept peace. Any Arabs who wanted to come home at the very beginning could have done so. Claiming that the “right of return� should extend two generations into the future, when a few hundred thousand refugees -- carefully and deliberately made to remain refugees for 62 years, unlike any “refugees� in human history anywhere in the world -- have multiplied into millions, and still have no intention of “living in peace with their neighbours,� is beyond ridiculous, no matter how heavily that idea is promoted in the Arab world.

I wouldn't presume to claim that you CAN'T respond to this material; perhaps you haven't had time.

After all, it's only been posted since Sunday, November 14.

And, of course, I must conclude, once again, with this list of OTHER facts which you have, to date, consistently refused to acknowledge or comment upon in any way, refusing even to acknowledge or comment on their repeated posting. I have decided to begin posting them in green. You know, like Kryptonite.

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated quotes clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.

First, I note that your first source is just another Zionist disinfo mill, of which there are ever more flooding the Net. I do not accept it as a neutral source, and certainly not able to present "Palestine FACTS"

I have not commented on this thread to date, but have been reading a bit here and there.

I would have to say this comment by DeBunkem is nothing more than an ad hominem dismissal. If you wish to criticize the source, fine.

But that does not mean the statements presented are not factual. Can you actually refute the statements made or not?

I presume that the rest of the post is similarly larded with Zionist revisionist "FACTS." But I will nonetheless, as time allows, proceed to answer it.

I look forward to your response both on these issues and the others that have been raised.

[cnorman18]

DeBunkem:

You continue to use the phrase "stolen land" as a baseline assumption and a claim of fact; but you seem curiously unable to respond to -- excuse me, I must correct myself; to ACKNOWLEDGE THE EXISTENCE OF -- this material, which I shall do you the courtesy of posting yet again here. Notice the multiple links.

Further, on the oft-repeated allegation that the Israelis “stole Palestinian land�:

Look here, here, and here; Note this:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Look HERE, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The idea that Israel was “stolen� from the Arabs is, simply put, a myth; and the proof of that, as I keep saying without response or acknowledgment, is that very many Arabs did not leave during the War of Independence; they remained in Israel, were left in peace, and they and their descendants live in Israel today. Arabs in Israel own land, do business, vote, serve in the Knesset, worship freely, and live as full, peaceful and participatory citizens of their nation. Other than Tunisia and Morocco, are there Jews in Arab countries who can say that? Will there be Jews who may do that in the Judenrein Palestinian state?

And, from yet another post:

The idea that the Israelis brutally invaded Palestine, murdered thousands of Arabs, and drove them off their ancestral lands is simply untrue. There were atrocities, but those occurred on both sides; and the FACT is that the Arab refugees who left Israel were welcome to return in 1948. That’s a matter of record, and the reasons it didn’t happen are not the fault of the Israelis.

From Resolution 194 of the United Nations General Assembly, passed on December 11, 1948, before the end of the War of Independence: Notice the portion marked in boldface.

Article 11 reads:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

The Arab nations initially opposed this resolution, and few Arabs took the offer, specifically because of the refusal of the nations which attacked Israel to accept peace. Any Arabs who wanted to come home at the very beginning could have done so. Claiming that the “right of return� should extend two generations into the future, when a few hundred thousand refugees -- carefully and deliberately made to remain refugees for 62 years, unlike any “refugees� in human history anywhere in the world -- have multiplied into millions, and still have no intention of “living in peace with their neighbours,� is beyond ridiculous, no matter how heavily that idea is promoted in the Arab world.

I wouldn't presume to claim that you CAN'T respond to this material; perhaps you haven't had time.

After all, it's only been posted since Sunday, November 14.

...

First, I note that your first source is just another Zionist disinfo mill, of which there are ever more flooding the Net. I do not accept it as a neutral source, and certainly not able to present "Palestine FACTS" I presume that the rest of the post is similarly larded with Zionist revisionist "FACTS." But I will nonetheless, as time allows, proceed to answer it.

That is the equivalent of an ad hominem. Of course you dispute the source; it's Jewish, and the unspoken assumption under which you work is "Jews lie." The question is: can you dispute and disprove the FACTS? I'll be eager to see.

No need to mention that there are similar disinfo sites for extremist Palestinian views.

To which you frequently resort for distorted statistics, fabricated quotations, and of course everyone's favorite treat, your blatantly inflammatory propaganda cartoons.

If you cannot accept the UN and other neutral parties...

You have proven in your own posts, over and over again, that the UN is very, very far from a "neutral party."

...this is an exercise in futility, as most attempts to decide the true owners of the "Holy Land" have been throughout history. Abrahamic fanatic religions are peculiarly blind to the "FACTS" even when they are staring them in the face.

As Tuco, played by the late Eli Wallach, said in The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly: "If you're going to shoot, shoot; don't talk."

Let's see what you've got.

Don't forget to address all this, too -- as time permits, of course. You haven't so far -- EVER -- and even when you quote it, you won't acknowledge or allude to a word of it:

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated quotes clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.

I'll be busy not holding my breath.

[cnorman18]

The pertinent parts here are that Israel is in violation of international law, which negates any oddly anachronistic (but only for Israeli claims) acceptance of armed conquest and agression as legitimate. I wonder if the same sentiment would hold if Syria suddenly invaded occupied Palestine, beat the IDF, and imprisoned or expelled all Jewish resistance.
Chomsky gets right to the point on legitimate brokering of peace by questioning the US as a broker, a farcical idea in itself. would Israel be pleased if Iran was brokering this process?

The Charade of Israeli-Palestinian Talks

By Noam Chomsky

December 07, 2010 --- Washington’s pathetic capitulation to Israel while pleading for a meaningless three-month freeze on settlement expansion—excluding Arab East Jerusalem—should go down as one of the most humiliating moments in U.S. diplomatic history.

In September the last settlement freeze ended, leading the Palestinians to cease direct talks with Israel. Now the Obama administration, desperate to lure Israel into a new freeze and thus revive the talks, is grasping at invisible straws—and lavishing gifts on a far-right Israeli government.

The gifts include $3 billion for fighter jets. The largesse also happens to be another taxpayer grant to the U.S. arms industry, which gains doubly from programs to expand the militarization of the Middle East.

U.S. arms manufacturers are subsidized not only to develop and produce advanced equipment for a state that is virtually part of the U.S. military-intelligence establishment but also to provide second-rate military equipment to the Gulf states—currently a precedent-breaking $60 billion arms sale to Saudi Arabia, which is a transaction that also recycles petrodollars to an ailing U.S. economy.

Israeli and U.S. high-tech civilian industries are closely integrated. It is small wonder that the most fervent support for Israeli actions comes from the business press and the Republican Party, the more extreme of the two business-oriented political parties. The pretext for the huge arms sales to Saudi Arabia is defense against the “Iranian threat.�

However, the Iranian threat is not military, as the Pentagon and U.S. intelligence have emphasized. Were Iran to develop a nuclear weapons capacity, the purpose would be deterrent—presumably to ward off a U.S.-Israeli attack.

The real threat, in Washington’s view, is that Iran is seeking to expand its influence in neighboring countries “stabilized� by U.S. invasion and occupation.

The official line is that the Arab states are pleading for U.S. military aid to defend themselves against Iran. True or false, the claim provides interesting insight into the reigning concept of democracy. Whatever the ruling dictatorships may prefer, Arabs in a recent Brookings poll rank the major threats to the region as Israel (88 percent), the United States (77 percent) and Iran (10 percent).

It is interesting that U.S. officials, as revealed in the just-released WikiLeaks cables, totally ignored Arab public opinion, keeping to the views of the reigning dictators.

The U.S. gifts to Israel also include diplomatic support, according to current reports. Washington pledges to veto any U.N. Security Council actions that might annoy Israel’s leaders and to drop any call for further extension of a settlement freeze.

Hence, by agreeing to the three-month pause, Israel will no longer be disturbed by the paymaster as it expands its criminal actions in the occupied territories.

That these actions are criminal has not been in doubt since late 1967, when Israel’s leading legal authority, international jurist Theodor Meron, advised the government that its plans to initiate settlements in the occupied territories violated the Fourth Geneva Convention, a core principle of international humanitarian law, established in 1949 to criminalize the horrors of the Nazi regime.

Meron’s conclusion was endorsed by Justice Minister Ya’akov Shimson Shapira, and shortly after by Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, writes historian Gershom Gorenberg in The Accidental Empire.

Dayan informed his fellow ministers, “We must consolidate our hold so that over time we will succeed in `digesting’ Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and merging them with `little’ Israel,� meanwhile “dismember(ing) the territorial contiguity� of the West Bank, all under the usual pretense “that the step is necessary for military purposes.�

Dayan had no doubts, or qualms, about what he was recommending: “Settling Israelis in occupied territory contravenes, as is known, international conventions,� he observed. “But there is nothing essentially new in that.�
Dayan’s correct assumption was that the boss in Washington might object formally, but with a wink, and would continue to provide the decisive military, economic and diplomatic support for the criminal endeavors.

The criminality has been underscored by repeated Security Council resolutions, more recently by the International Court of Justice, with the basic agreement of U.S. Justice Thomas Buergenthal in a separate declaration. Israel’s actions also violate U.N. Security Council resolutions concerning Jerusalem. But everything is fine as long as Washington winks.

Back in Washington, the Republican super-hawks are even more fervent in their support for Israeli crimes. Eric Cantor, the new majority leader in the House of Representatives, “has floated a novel solution to protect aid for Israel from the current foreign aid backlash,� Glenn Kessler reports in The Washington Post: “giving the Jewish state its own funding account, thus removing it from funds for the rest of the world.�

The issue of settlement expansion is simply a diversion. The real issue is the existence of the settlements and related infrastructure developments. These have been carefully designed so that Israel has already taken over more than 40 percent of the occupied West Bank, including suburbs of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv; the arable land; and the primary water sources of the region, all on the Israeli side of the Separation Wall—in reality an annexation wall.

Since 1967, Israel has vastly expanded the borders of Jerusalem in violation of Security Council orders and despite universal international objection (including the U.S., at least formally).

The focus on settlement expansion, and Washington’s groveling, are not the only farcical elements of the current negotiations. The very structure is a charade. The U.S. is portrayed as an “honest broker� seeking to mediate between two recalcitrant adversaries. But serious negotiations would be conducted by some neutral party, with the U.S. and Israel on one side, and the world on the other.

It is hardly a secret that for 35 years the U.S. and Israel have stood virtually alone in opposition to a consensus on a political settlement that is close to universal, including the Arab states, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (including Iran), and all other relevant parties.

With brief and rare departures, the two rejectionist states have preferred illegal expansion to security. Unless Washington’s stand changes, political settlement is effectively barred. And expansion, with its reverberations throughout the region and the world, continues.

© The New York Times Syndicate

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e27019.htm

Chomsky again (yawn). The master card-stacker of them all. It's astonishing that he can whine about "Arab public opinion" in this way, considering that the following obviously relevant portion of my "Kryptonite paragraph" that's been repeatedly addressed to you applies to him as well, ESPECIALLY on that particular issue:

"No acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected." Why would the Arabs NOT regard Israel as the most dangerous enemy? They've been carefully indoctrinated for decades to the effect that Jews plan to corrupt and conquer the world and that they gleefully drink their children's blood in sacred religious ceremonies. Of course, Chomsky's association with Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis is well known and well-documented, so this isn't particularly surprising. (Feel free to challenge me on that, by the way.)

Not to mention the FACT that "settlements" can be, AND HAVE BEEN, evacuated and withdrawn in Gaza, and that exactly such withdrawals of settlements was proposed and rejected without a counteroffer at Camp David ten years ago; that the "settlements" have been opposed by every American President who has ever held the office; and ...

Hmmm. Come to think of it, I wonder which parts of the following DON'T apply to Chomsky?

Oh, well. Here it is again, though I suspect there's still ZERO chance that you'll ever so much as allude to it:

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated quotes clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.

[cnorman18]

Duplicate post.

[DeBunkem]

CNorman keeps "hectoring" me to answer his post, and the tag team wants me to peel off and answer their answer to my answer? As HW Bush liked to say: "Nope, ain't gonna do it; wouldn't be prudent." Kindly allow me to respond. :harass:

Further, on the oft-repeated allegation that the Israelis “stole Palestinian land�:

Look here, here, and here; Note this:
Quote:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Looks like all your quotes are from the same Zionist disinfo mill (NO fault ascribed to Zionist agression and terrorist groups such as Stern and Gush-whatever et al.) Ergo:

Look here , here , and here ;

BTW:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian

Oh please...skewing statistics and fuzzy math on Palestinian demographics? The Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine since the Dispersion, and remain so until this day. Spindoctoring at its worst.
So, more response tomorrow. Shalom,boys!

[cnorman18]

CNorman keeps "hectoring" me to answer his post, and the tag team wants me to peel off and answer their answer to my answer? As HW Bush liked to say: "Nope, ain't gonna do it; wouldn't be prudent." Kindly allow me to respond. :harass:

Further, on the oft-repeated allegation that the Israelis “stole Palestinian land�:

Look here, here, and here; Note this:
Quote:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Looks like all your quotes are from the same Zionist disinfo mill (NO fault ascribed to Zionist agression and terrorist groups such as Stern and Gush-whatever et al.)

Same ad hominem attack on the source, with accompanying total failure to address content, noted previously.

Ergo:

[pointless pics deleted]

BTW:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian

Oh please...skewing statistics and fuzzy math on Palestinian demographics? The Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine since the Dispersion, and remain so until this day. Spindoctoring at its worst.

No numbers, no source, no references... No facts at all.

Imagine my surprise.

Allow me to restore #2, which you deleted (another huge surprise):

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

No comment on those FACTS at all. Yet another surprise.

So, more response tomorrow. Shalom,boys!

[pointless non sequitur picture deleted]

Another complaint tomorrow about how frightfully unfair it is to have "tag teams" of evil Zionists ganging up on you?

Another complaint tomorrow about "hectoring" (aka "repeatedly posting material that you can't acknowledge having even SEEN")?

Another repetition tomorrow of the same fact-free ad hominem noted earlier?

Another strutting, posturing claim of having "responded" to my post tomorrow, without even an attempt to refute the FACTS therein?

Another instance of jumping up and down with the implicit cry of "Liar!" without even an attempt to post any OTHER "facts" that contradict these?

Maybe a few more pointless pictures?

Gosh, I can't wait to see you shoot more blanks and pretend you've made a point of some kind.

In the meantime, here's that Kryptonite paragraph that you can't touch. Maybe if you're really lucky, someone might be struck blind and not see it.

That's your only hope of credibility here.

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated quotes clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.

See you tomorrow.

[DeBunkem]

Well, my regrets that circumstances prevented my response as intended, but now it is the weekend and a monsoon has hit the NW, so I take some time to answer a few of the Zionist attack PAC :yapyap: This one is the the most shrill and demanding, so the rest of ya take a number:

CNorman:

Look HERE, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The poster does not like my manner of response {|= (I want this to be fun...don't take yourselves so seriously), but please. . . the Israeli Foreign Ministry? You want me to answer spy-talk? These are the "Plausible Deniers" of the world, whether CIA, Mossad, MI-6 or AIPAC. Sure, there a few truths mixed in to disguise the lies, but spies and generals lie as a tactic of war...axiomatic, Mr. Norman. You can always copy them by censoring me or expulsion to the dead threads. Ergo:

Look , too.

[cnorman18]

Well, my regrets that circumstances prevented my response as intended, but now it is the weekend and a monsoon has hit the NW, so I take some time to answer a few of the Zionist attack PAC :yapyap: This one is the the most shrill and demanding, so the rest of ya take a number:

CNorman:

Look HERE, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The poster does not like my manner of response {|=

Cute, but false. I don't like the content of your responses. There isn't any.

(I want this to be fun...don't take yourselves so seriously)

Do you think I have a mouse in my pocket? Or are you complaining about being "tag-teamed" again?

I AM having fun. Intermediate-level Sudoku is more challenging than countering your propaganda, but it's a way to pass the time.

but please. . . the Israeli Foreign Ministry? You want me to answer spy-talk? These are the "Plausible Deniers" of the world, whether CIA, Mossad, MI-6 or AIPAC. Sure, there a few truths mixed in to disguise the lies, but spies and generals lie as a tactic of war...axiomatic, Mr. Norman.

So post some documented facts and expose the "lies." We've all been waiting for that for some time now. Do I HAVE to point out, for the third time, that this is just another fact-free ad hominem? Thus far, my numbers are the only ones on the table.

But, since you insist, let me add some more information from another source:

From The Jewish Virtual Library (I know, I know, but can you disprove the FACTS?):

MYTH

“The partition plan gave the Jews most of the land, and all of the cultivable area.�

FACT
The partition plan took on a checkerboard appearance largely because Jewish towns and villages were spread throughout Palestine. This did not complicate the plan as much as the fact that the high living standards in Jewish cities and towns had attracted large Arab populations, which insured that any partition would result in a Jewish state that included a substantial Arab population. Recognizing the need to allow for additional Jewish settlement, the majority proposal allotted the Jews land in the northern part of the country, the Galilee, and the large, arid Negev desert in the south. The remainder was to form the Arab state.



These boundaries were based solely on demographics. The borders of the Jewish State were arranged with no consideration of security; hence, the new state’s frontiers were virtually indefensible. Overall, the Jewish State was to be comprised of roughly 5,500 square miles, and the population was to be 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs. Approximately 92,000 Arabs lived in Tiberias, Safed, Haifa and Bet Shean, and another 40,000 were Bedouins, most of whom were living in the desert. The remainder of the Arab population was spread throughout the Jewish state.

The Arab State was to be 4,500 square miles with a population of 804,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews.4 Critics claim the UN gave the Jews fertile land while the Arabs were allotted hilly, arid land. To the contrary, approximately 60 percent of the Jewish state was to be the desert in the Negev while the Arabs occupied most of the agricultural land.5

Further complicating the situation was the UN majority’s insistence that Jerusalem remain apart from both states and be administered as an international zone. This arrangement left more than 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem isolated from their country and circumscribed by the Arab state.

According to British statistics, more than 70 percent of the land in what would become Israel was not owned by Arab farmers, it belonged to the mandatory government. Those lands reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British. Nearly 9 percent of the land was owned by Jews and about 3 percent by Arabs who became citizens of Israel. That means only about 18 percent belonged to Arabs who left the country before and after the Arab invasion of Israel.6

You can always copy them by censoring me or expulsion to the dead threads.

Another complaint?

{|=

Nothing here to censor. Unless you're talking about your usual propaganda cartoons, which are still available in your original post.

Ergo:

[aforementioned propaganda cartoon deleted]

Guess I'll add a line to the Kryptonite paragraph that you're still helpless to touch:

Again, no acknowledgment of the decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder; no acknowledgment of the responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics; no acknowledgment of the openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast; no acknowledgment of the decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected; no acknowledgment of Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, and even dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true; no acknowledgment of the Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea; no acknowledgment that many Arabs never left Israel, and live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day; no acknowledgment of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�; no acknowledgment of the blatant anti-Israel bias of the UN; and, finally, no acknowledgment of the FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict. In short, no acknowledgment of anything but the unquestioning embrace of pure Palestinian propaganda, often including fake and fabricated “quotes� clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment, and of course your favorite inflammatory and fact-free propaganda cartoons.

When you're ready to actually acknowledge and talk about some of the FACTS above, and therefore to actually engage in meaningful debate as opposed to peddling one-sided propaganda, let me know.