Today's ruling on marriage equality has brought equal marriage rights to several new states. It really looks like anti-gay activists are on the wrong side of history here, and soon marriage for all will be the law of the land.
What's interesting to me (from a philosophical and sociological perspective) is that both pro-discrimination and pro-marriage-equality advocates claim to be "pro-family." Anti-marriage advocates claim that allowing same-gender couples to get married will undermine different-gender marriages and somehow do harm to children. Pro-equality people, on the other hand, say that equalizing marriage laws will allow same-gender couples to access the protections and benefits of marriage (hospital visitation, child adoption, tax breaks, social legitimacy), which will let them build strong families and more fully contribute to society.
Debate question: What do you think? Does opening up marriage to same-gender couples strengthen or harm the family? Is supporting marriage equality the best political option for people who are pro-family?
Marriage Equality Marches Forward
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #41
[Replying to post 39 by Stonez]
The irony here is you are not having freedoms taken away but the referendum is about taking away the freedoms of LGBT people. No one is telling you how to think but maybe pointing out the flaws in your arguments. If you want to have a negative view of LGBT individuals as parents or couples have at it. If people have a negative view of you for having those beliefs they should be free to have one views as well. Free speech is free speech you don't get to have the right to rail against others and suppress the right of those railing back.
As a thought experiment list the freedoms you have been deprived by gay marriage being made legal.
The irony here is you are not having freedoms taken away but the referendum is about taking away the freedoms of LGBT people. No one is telling you how to think but maybe pointing out the flaws in your arguments. If you want to have a negative view of LGBT individuals as parents or couples have at it. If people have a negative view of you for having those beliefs they should be free to have one views as well. Free speech is free speech you don't get to have the right to rail against others and suppress the right of those railing back.
As a thought experiment list the freedoms you have been deprived by gay marriage being made legal.
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Haven
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Post #42
[Replying to post 31 by Stonez]
Your anecdotes mean about as much as a young-Earth creationist's "theories" about the Earth being 6,000 years old based on his interpretation of the Bible, which is to say nothing at all. Data will always trump anecdotes, and there is no evidence to suggest parenting by gay people is harmful (and also, being gay is not a harm!).
Your anecdotes mean about as much as a young-Earth creationist's "theories" about the Earth being 6,000 years old based on his interpretation of the Bible, which is to say nothing at all. Data will always trump anecdotes, and there is no evidence to suggest parenting by gay people is harmful (and also, being gay is not a harm!).
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥
Post #43
Thanks for presenting these findings Envious. It's not that I don't find these studies persuasive but rather it goes against my own experience.
Here is an example;
Lets look at this case as an example;
Let me just use one child (now an adult) to keep it short;
The single mother who has been with a same sex partner for over 20yrs now. Before they got together, I saw no signs of her 4yr old son being gay or being drawn to girly things. After they got together, around 6yrs old, He would come to play with my son Wearing his sisters cloths, playing with dolls and make up and wanting to be a girl. I warned them both, several times, not to bring their son up like a girl. They believed in all this unichild crap, only it isn't a unichild, it's turning boys into girls. They held a different view to me, being both feminists and gay lobbyists. so I stayed out of it.
I saw a direct correlation in the way he was being raised to the very confused young man he now is, plucking his eye brows, shaving his legs, talking like a woman and yet he is as strong as an ox. I would have him work for me any time, if not for any other reason but to help him find himself, especially after his sister dieing last year.
There was no father around to teach him but it did teach me that it was important to teach my son to be a man. That has atleast payed off for my family...
I have to agree that hetro families are not doing so well in our independent capitalist cultures. Probably no better than homosexual families. However, I think that as complicated as it is to grow up in our culture, adding gay families isn't going to help our children. It's just another burden upon them or so my experiences cause me to believe. I suppose every individual case is unique to it's self, so maybe I shouldn't be bias but I think adoption is another issue...
lets look at this from a Childs perspective.
A hypothetical;
A 5yr old orphan is up for adoption. Children want a mother and a father. Can you imagine a child in this situation wanting anything less? I can't. If you gave a child a choice between a father and a mother or two gay fathers or two gay mothers, I believe the child would choose 100% of the time to be put with a family with a father and a mother... A gay couple wants to adopt. Does it matter what the child wants?...
One thing is certain, hetro families in our culture are in a bad way but to state that Homo families are doing well has red lights all round it for me. It's simply not true...I think our culture is responsible for family breakdown and gay families are not immune to that, on the contrary, it's just another mess our kids have to deal with...
Here is an example;
Maybe more so, "I wont let research get in the way of my own experiences".enviousintheeverafter wrote: Given this, "spare me all the gay propaganda" can mean little else than "I won't let facts get in the way of my opinion". .
Lets look at this case as an example;
This goes totally against my experiences in the situations of 6 different children I mentioned in my original post. I don't know how to make this brief if I go into it? Maybe that isn't necessary?enviousintheeverafter wrote: "The results demonstrate no differences on any measures between the heterosexual and homosexual parents regarding parenting styles, emotional adjustment, and sexual orientation of the child(ren). In other words, the data fail to support the continuation of a bias against homosexual parents by any court." .
Let me just use one child (now an adult) to keep it short;
The single mother who has been with a same sex partner for over 20yrs now. Before they got together, I saw no signs of her 4yr old son being gay or being drawn to girly things. After they got together, around 6yrs old, He would come to play with my son Wearing his sisters cloths, playing with dolls and make up and wanting to be a girl. I warned them both, several times, not to bring their son up like a girl. They believed in all this unichild crap, only it isn't a unichild, it's turning boys into girls. They held a different view to me, being both feminists and gay lobbyists. so I stayed out of it.
I saw a direct correlation in the way he was being raised to the very confused young man he now is, plucking his eye brows, shaving his legs, talking like a woman and yet he is as strong as an ox. I would have him work for me any time, if not for any other reason but to help him find himself, especially after his sister dieing last year.
There was no father around to teach him but it did teach me that it was important to teach my son to be a man. That has atleast payed off for my family...
I do get this. If gays have children, then who am I to deny them their parental rights.enviousintheeverafter wrote: The bottom line is that no one claims that same-sex parents are perfect, or that all children of same-sex parents are perfectly well-adjusted and happy, and it would be unreasonable to hold this as the standard- the point is that same-sex parents are no worse than traditional couples, so the well-being of children cannot be used as a reason to exclude same-sex couples from adoption/marriage/parenting (since same-sex couples are in exactly the same boat as everyone else in this regard). .
I have to agree that hetro families are not doing so well in our independent capitalist cultures. Probably no better than homosexual families. However, I think that as complicated as it is to grow up in our culture, adding gay families isn't going to help our children. It's just another burden upon them or so my experiences cause me to believe. I suppose every individual case is unique to it's self, so maybe I shouldn't be bias but I think adoption is another issue...
lets look at this from a Childs perspective.
A hypothetical;
A 5yr old orphan is up for adoption. Children want a mother and a father. Can you imagine a child in this situation wanting anything less? I can't. If you gave a child a choice between a father and a mother or two gay fathers or two gay mothers, I believe the child would choose 100% of the time to be put with a family with a father and a mother... A gay couple wants to adopt. Does it matter what the child wants?...
Maybe not but experience is...DanieltheDragon wrote: Perhaps anecdotes are not a good way to judge people.
One thing is certain, hetro families in our culture are in a bad way but to state that Homo families are doing well has red lights all round it for me. It's simply not true...I think our culture is responsible for family breakdown and gay families are not immune to that, on the contrary, it's just another mess our kids have to deal with...
As Above...Blastcat wrote: What is your point?
Post #44
There is a difference between freedom of speech, freedom of expression and the freedom to practice something against the law.DanieltheDragon wrote:The irony here is you are not having freedoms taken away but the referendum is about taking away the freedoms of LGBT people. .
A drinker is free to drink alcohol but a pot smoker is not free to smoke pot, in this country anyway. Is that discrimination? Does the pot smoker not have freedom of speech?
No one is wanting to take anyone's freedom of speech away. The gays practise it more than anyone, without complaint, even if I see it as pumped up propaganda nonsense...
If the majority of our country votes against gay marriage then that is democracy. I'm not taking away from the right of the gays to protest or have their campaigns to put forward their views. I'm just not buying their bullshit...
Yes true, I was actually speaking as a whole in that last post about freedom of speech. It wasn't directed at this thread or this argument. It was more to point out how tiered I am of the whole political correct thinking. The younger ones may be able to keep up with the times but for me, I am a generation behind the thinking of these young 20yr olds who expect us all to think like them...DanieltheDragon wrote:No one is telling you how to think but maybe pointing out the flaws in your arguments. .
And that's what I love about free speech. I never did care for what people thought of me just because of my views...DanieltheDragon wrote:If you want to have a negative view of LGBT individuals as parents or couples have at it. If people have a negative view of you for having those beliefs they should be free to have one views as well. .
I'm all for that...Where have I said I want gay lobbyists muzzled of free speech? I just think they are full of it...DanieltheDragon wrote:Free speech is free speech you don't get to have the right to rail against others and suppress the right of those railing back. .
Gay marriage is not legal here. Gay marriage wouldn't deprive me of anything at all. It's a little like me saying to you, how would legalising pot deprive you of your rights. You may reply with "I have a concern for our children". I would probably reply with the same response concerning gay marriage, due to my experiences, regardless of research and statistics. I'm not a scientist, I'm a parent...DanieltheDragon wrote:As a thought experiment list the freedoms you have been deprived by gay marriage being made legal. .
What is an anecdotes to you and maybe useless in debate, is experience for me, and has everything to do with why I think the way I do. Your stab at comparing my thinking to young earth creationist rational is nonsense...Haven wrote:Your anecdotes mean about as much as a young-Earth creationist's "theories" about the Earth being 6,000 years old based on his interpretation of the Bible, which is to say nothing at all. .
Maybe in debate but not in experience. The evidence is in the experience, even if just for myself. Like I said to Daniel, I'm not a scientist, I'm a parent...I go by my instinct which is established via my experiences.Haven wrote:Data will always trump anecdotes, and there is no evidence to suggest parenting by gay people is harmful (and also, being gay is not a harm!). .
You sound a little to me like these people who buy into these scientific statistics about things that have been funded by the very people trying to manipulate the outcome to their own benefits. EG, coke paying scientists to study their own product and give positive feedback...Now that's borderline young earth creationist thinking...
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enviousintheeverafter
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Post #45
Sure, and they're not intended to refute your experience, only to put it into proper perspective; what the data does strongly suggest is that your experience is atypical.Stonez wrote: Thanks for presenting these findings Envious. It's not that I don't find these studies persuasive but rather it goes against my own experience.
The problem is extrapolating those experiences to other cases, or to a general rule, when the facts suggest that these experiences represent an exception to a general rule.Maybe more so, "I wont let research get in the way of my own experiences".
Well, but since it seems pretty clear that one of the primary dangers to children of same-sex parents is from the social stigma attached to homosexuality, "adding gay families" is going to help children in such situations in the sense that it almost assuredly will continue the trend of decreased prejudice towards same-sex couples. Increasing acceptance and decreasing ignorance/prejudice have a tendency to snowball. But in any case the point here isn't that gay parents don't necessarily "help" children- only that they don't harm them any more than straight parents or traditional families.However, I think that as complicated as it is to grow up in our culture, adding gay families isn't going to help our children. It's just another burden upon them or so my experiences cause me to believe.
Not in the sense Daniel means- anecdotes, and personal experience, are not reliable ways to judge people in general because our experience is necessarily limited. So we have to take our own experience with a grain of salt, and not assume its representative of other people's experiences- especially when there's a wide body of credible scientific evidence showing that it is not representative.Maybe not but experience is...
Post #46
[Replying to post 44 by Stonez]
Gay marriage isn't any kind of gateway towards families with gay parents (it's not required), nor are all or most families with gay parents going to be poor parents. Even if they were, bad parenting and indoctrination obviously aren't exclusive.
With the example, it's entirely possible that the kid actually had gender identity disorder and expressed a different kind of interest in the other gender, as opposed to having been brought up into it.
Gay marriage isn't any kind of gateway towards families with gay parents (it's not required), nor are all or most families with gay parents going to be poor parents. Even if they were, bad parenting and indoctrination obviously aren't exclusive.
With the example, it's entirely possible that the kid actually had gender identity disorder and expressed a different kind of interest in the other gender, as opposed to having been brought up into it.
