Sexuality & Orientation: A question.

[marketandchurch]

This is a question I am very curious about, vis-a-vis the Christian/Muslim/Jew crowd. But atheists are welcome to chime in as well. Do you think sexuality is fixed?

If you think sexuality is fixed, what is your own personal explanation for the existence of other sexualities? Are there several possibilities vis-a-vis orientation, for the human creature? And by fixed nature, what do you believe is the strength of that rigidity?

Do you think it is somewhat of a spectrum wherein there are most of us, who have a fixed heterosexual orientation, a small group who have a fixed homosexual orientation, and an even tinier portion who are "confused," have multiple sexual identities, or no sexual identity at all?

In other words, please explain your view of the matter in full, and I would love to just get a cross-section of where Christians/Muslim/Jew are on the matter. It is incredibly helpful, because the premise we hold will frame the way we approach the issue of same-sex marriage.

Feel free to expand this to the greater Gay-Marriage debate if you wish, so long as it relates to gender, sexual orientation, and its affects on the society at large.

[charles_hamm]

[Replying to post 360 by charles_hamm]

Then why would the writers of Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34 even bother to include those observations which are consistent with the boozey wedding feast and particularly if you still insist that Jesus poofed up an extra six hundred litres of grog above that which had already been catered for.

It might have been included to illustrate that no matter what Jesus did, He was not going to please all of the people, kind of like on this forum.

Particularly if they were moderate drinkers or teetotalers. And I wonder if his boozey mates appreciated the super hangovers and alcohol poisoning after guzzling down that extra 600 litres of quality grog which I guess would have added at least another $20,000 to a wedding bill in today's terms.

I wonder where you got any of the things you say here about hangovers and alcohol poisoning? Can you admit that you have absolutely no proof of this and have only added it as pure speculation. Also I love how the fact that Jesus turned water to wine means nothing because you have a somewhat misguided opinion that Jesus was a drunk.

[mitty]

Indeed... While Jesus was imparting wisdom, he apparently forgot to tell us what we could do to avoid cancer, avoid mental illness, avoid war, which political system was most advantageous, whether we should use birth control or not, etc...


Instead he gives us bland platitudes.

One mention of bacteria, or how to make aspirin, or SOMETHING would have gone a long way in establishing his credibility.

One mention of the Oriental flea could have saved hundreds of millions of people, yet, instead, his representatives used it to scare people into religion.

I'm sorry, if Jesus WAS God, he was a major dick.

So telling the world how to avoid eternal damnation was not enough? I guess He probably considered telling people how to go to Heaven more important than explaining how to get over a headache.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe He was more worried about providing people with a way to Heaven than a quick fix to a temporary problem?

Where's the material evidence to back up that ink and paper conjecture? Why is selling after-life "salvation" any different to any other snake-oil salesman or wrinkle cream salesman or other rackets, and the jury is still out about the Jesus story.

The evidence is the word of God written in the Bible. The jury is only out temporarily in my opinion.

Which god? Zeus or Woden or Thor? Afterall each week we acknowledge the Sun on Sunday, the Moon on Monday, Zeus on Tuesday, Woden on Wednesday, Thor on Thursday, Frig on Friday and Saturn on Saturday. And in January we acknowledge Janus, Mars in March and Juno in June. And besides, the bible is only a book written by men, for men, about men and their business, about their history and their myths and legends including their gods who they created in their image.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 360 by charles_hamm]

Then why would the writers of Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34 even bother to include those observations which are consistent with the boozey wedding feast and particularly if you still insist that Jesus poofed up an extra six hundred litres of grog above that which had already been catered for.

It might have been included to illustrate that no matter what Jesus did, He was not going to please all of the people, kind of like on this forum.

Particularly if they were moderate drinkers or teetotalers. And I wonder if his boozey mates appreciated the super hangovers and alcohol poisoning after guzzling down that extra 600 litres of quality grog which I guess would have added at least another $20,000 to a wedding bill in today's terms.

I wonder where you got any of the things you say here about hangovers and alcohol poisoning? Can you admit that you have absolutely no proof of this and have only added it as pure speculation. Also I love how the fact that Jesus turned water to wine means nothing because you have a somewhat misguided opinion that Jesus was a drunk.

The bible clearly says he was a drunk, which he didn't refute (Matt 11:19 Luke 7:34), and that's good enough evidence. And particularly since those observations are backed up by the account of the boozey wedding (John 2) for which you claim an extra 600 litres of grog was conjured up from water. And even his last meal involved alcohol consumption. Were the biblical writers also just speculating about his drinking habits? And afterall I didn't write the bible. Either you accept that he conjured up an extra 600 litres of grog to continue a very very very drunken session, or that John 2 can easily be explained by him simply hiding some good wine in the six water barrels which was retrieved by the servants who knew how he hid the wine (John 2:9) and that the wine containers would float when they filled the barrels with water.

[charles_hamm]

[Replying to post 360 by charles_hamm]

Then why would the writers of Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34 even bother to include those observations which are consistent with the boozey wedding feast and particularly if you still insist that Jesus poofed up an extra six hundred litres of grog above that which had already been catered for.

It might have been included to illustrate that no matter what Jesus did, He was not going to please all of the people, kind of like on this forum.

Particularly if they were moderate drinkers or teetotalers. And I wonder if his boozey mates appreciated the super hangovers and alcohol poisoning after guzzling down that extra 600 litres of quality grog which I guess would have added at least another $20,000 to a wedding bill in today's terms.

I wonder where you got any of the things you say here about hangovers and alcohol poisoning? Can you admit that you have absolutely no proof of this and have only added it as pure speculation. Also I love how the fact that Jesus turned water to wine means nothing because you have a somewhat misguided opinion that Jesus was a drunk.

The bible clearly says he was a drunk, which he didn't refute (Matt 11:19 Luke 7:34), and that's good enough evidence. And particularly since those observations are backed up by the account of the boozey wedding (John 2) for which you claim an extra 600 litres of grog was conjured up from water. And even his last meal involved alcohol consumption. Were the biblical writers also just speculating about his drinking habits? And afterall I didn't write the bible. Either you accept that he conjured up an extra 600 litres of grog to continue a very very very drunken session, or that John 2 can easily be explained by him simply hiding some good wine in the six water barrels which was retrieved by the servants who knew how he hid the wine (John 2:9) and that the wine containers would float when they filled the barrels with water.

Please provide an actual occurence where the Bible SAYS, not quotes some unknown 'they', that Jesus was a drunk. You have alot of faith in this 'they' that is said to be talking about Jesus. Can you tell me who they were, what their character was? Nowhere in John 2 does it say that Jesus drank anything, much less was drunk. That is unsupported speculation on your part. I accept what is written. Jesus turned water into wine. There is no mention of some drunken session so I don't see the need to go and make up things that are not there. The servants knew where the wine came from. The Bible never says, and neither one of us were there to witness it, that the wine was hidden. This is another unfounded assumption on your part.

[charles_hamm]

Indeed... While Jesus was imparting wisdom, he apparently forgot to tell us what we could do to avoid cancer, avoid mental illness, avoid war, which political system was most advantageous, whether we should use birth control or not, etc...


Instead he gives us bland platitudes.

One mention of bacteria, or how to make aspirin, or SOMETHING would have gone a long way in establishing his credibility.

One mention of the Oriental flea could have saved hundreds of millions of people, yet, instead, his representatives used it to scare people into religion.

I'm sorry, if Jesus WAS God, he was a major dick.

So telling the world how to avoid eternal damnation was not enough? I guess He probably considered telling people how to go to Heaven more important than explaining how to get over a headache.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe He was more worried about providing people with a way to Heaven than a quick fix to a temporary problem?

Where's the material evidence to back up that ink and paper conjecture? Why is selling after-life "salvation" any different to any other snake-oil salesman or wrinkle cream salesman or other rackets, and the jury is still out about the Jesus story.

The evidence is the word of God written in the Bible. The jury is only out temporarily in my opinion.

Which god? Zeus or Woden or Thor? Afterall each week we acknowledge the Sun on Sunday, the Moon on Monday, Zeus on Tuesday, Woden on Wednesday, Thor on Thursday, Frig on Friday and Saturn on Saturday. And in January we acknowledge Janus, Mars in March and Juno in June. And besides, the bible is only a book written by men, for men, about men and their business, about their history and their myths and legends including their gods who they created in their image.

Actually, we don't acknowledge any of that. To acknowledge them is to give some sort of credit to them. I don't. These are just names given to periods of time so that mankind can measure time. They are nothing more. I can just as easily say 03/01 as I can March 1 and have the same meaning. Can you prove that God was created in mans image. Can you prove God was created at all for that matter.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 372 by charles_hamm]Where does the bible say he wasn't a drunk? Where did he refute the observations about his drinking habits recorded in Matt 11:19 Luke 7:34? John 2 does not say that the waiters said that Jesus waved a magic wand and 600 litres of water was magically transmuted into wine. All it says is that they knew how the illusion was performed, which fooled the governor of the feast, who wasn't even near the water barrels to observe. Do you also believe that Gandalf and Harry Potter did magical tricks too? If so, then you may be interested in buying a bridge I have on offer.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 373 by charles_hamm]Can you prove there is a god? In the same way that you don't acknowledge other gods, including the Sun Moon Zeus Wodin Thor Frig Saturn Janus Mars & Saturn, I don't acknowledge the bible god except as something created in the image of the male biblical writers. And since I haven't seen or heard or felt or smelt a god then I assume they don't exist unless it can be demonstrated otherwise. And since the non-existence of gods is the default situation, the onus of proof is on others to demonstrate their existence.

[charles_hamm]

[Replying to post 372 by charles_hamm]Where does the bible say he wasn't a drunk? Where did he refute the observations about his drinking habits recorded in Matt 11:19 Luke 7:34? John 2 does not say that the waiters said that Jesus waved a magic wand and 600 litres of water was magically transmuted into wine. All it says is that they knew how the illusion was performed, which fooled the governor of the feast, who wasn't even near the water barrels to observe. Do you also believe that Gandalf and Harry Potter did magical tricks too? If so, then you may be interested in buying a bridge I have on offer.

So you answer my question with a question... I can only take this to mean you don't have any proof of what you have claimed. It does not say that there was any illusion performed. Neither one of those two offer salvation so I don't really care what they do.

[charles_hamm]

[Replying to post 373 by charles_hamm]Can you prove there is a god? In the same way that you don't acknowledge other gods, including the Sun Moon Zeus Wodin Thor Frig Saturn Janus Mars & Saturn, I don't acknowledge the bible god except as something created in the image of the male biblical writers. And since I haven't seen or heard or felt or smelt a god then I assume they don't exist unless it can be demonstrated otherwise. And since the non-existence of gods is the default situation, the onus of proof is on others to demonstrate their existence.

Why do insist on answering my questions with a question? I will ask again: can you prove God was created in mans image? There is not much point in going any farther until you can answer this.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 376 by charles_hamm] But I'm not the evangelist trying to sell salvation. Alas, you haven't provided any convincing evidence to buy.

Sigh