How important is the protection of Religious freedom?

youngborean · Post by **youngborean** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:14 pm

Outcry rises over Afghan Christian convert

Very interesting story. Sharia law prescribes execution for converts, Western ideals say that no one should be persecuted for religious beliefs. So whose freedom to practice religion is more important (the west or the pro-Sharia Muslims)? And if we elect to support religious freedom should this pressure be applied to all regions where Sharia law exists (Iran, etc.)? Self-determination is more complicated than anyone imagined.

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:26 pm

bad editing...

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:27 pm

1John2_26 wrote:There is a lot of dust in Afghanistan. Jesus even said it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on the Day of Judgment than for places like Afghanistan.

Islam deafens its adherants. And even a secularist can "see" that.

You should read another version of the New Testament. I suggest the New Living Translation. Nothing changed just modern words used. The Skeptic's Annotated Version is inept at teaching Biblical truth and accuracy. As is the Qur'an.

Afghanistan is a cesspool for a reason. And it is not because of Born-Again Christians building incredible Universities, Hospitals, or, allowing for people to use them that oppose Christianity.

Muslims are the people living in Afghanistan in what 98% of the population?

1John2_26:
Your claims about Islam are bread out of ignorance, I hope, or hate. Your understanding of Islam as a religion lacks any critical analysis and thought. You continuously and hypocritically plague this forum with misinformation and inflammatory proclamations about a religion and its followers you know little to nothing about other than whatever right wing television show or website spoon feeds into your mouth. You label Islam a terrorist religion of violence and hatred without the slightest misgiving- don't you realize that 98% of the populous in Germany was Christian during the Holocaust? Do their actions and inactions reflect on Christianity, or was their reality a bit more complex than that? Do you not see how hypocritical and ridiculous your claims are?

In regards to the question at hand. The protection of human rights is paramount to the protection of religious freedoms. Though in many ways the two overlap, the dignity of the human comes before the honor or worship of any god(s.) It's no one's place to tell another person what to believe, but it's everyone's responsibility to respect the life and dignity of one another.

1John2_26 · Post by **1John2_26** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:49 pm

1John2_26:
Your claims about Islam are bread out of ignorance, I hope, or hate. Your understanding of Islam as a religion lacks any critical analysis and thought.

The history of Islam was war from its founding prophet killing people that would not "submit" to Islam (redundant huh?) to three-minutes ago. The prophet Mohammad got some kind of bad communication from angel calling itself Gabriel, as the Qur'an, is wrong about Biblical facts. Of course the Muslims solve this by claiming that Jews and Christians for some reasons changed the text of the Bible that was Muslim-supporting hundreds of years before Mohammad would be born. It makes no sense, but that is Islam for you. My ignorance about Islam is no where to be found.

You continuously and hypocritically plague this forum with misinformation and inflammatory proclamations about a religion and its followers you know little to nothing about other than whatever right wing television show or website spoon feeds into your mouth.

So it was Quakers threatening to kill Abdul Rahman? It was Rosacrucians that flew planes into the Twin Towers in New York? It was Raelians that beheahed people today in the middle east?

It was Muslims doing what Muslims have done unreported since Mohammad raided caravans. Though I may be ignorant of the numbers of people killed by Muslims though. That I must confess. We have only had news crews in the Middle east for a few years.

You label Islam a terrorist religion of violence and hatred without the slightest misgiving-

It's not? Killing those that leave Islam is not violent? I'm going to ahve to go back to school and see where I got the "ignorant" thing wrong.

don't you realize that 98% of the populous in Germany was Christian during the Holocaust?

And Christians rose to fight against the Nazi's that believed in the religion of Aryanism. As well as other Germanic religions that drove the Nazi's. You should study the religious side of the Third Reich. Discovery has a few Dvd's that can help you learn all about it.

Do their actions and inactions reflect on Christianity, or was their reality a bit more complex than that? Do you not see how hypocritical and ridiculous your claims are?

I am no hypocrite. I do not change the Gospel. Please read it and compare it to people that can kill anyone. WRONG, is a word that the ignorant do not want to "hear." I have just proven I am not wrong about your claims of my being ignorant.

In regards to the question at hand. The protection of human rights is paramount to the protection of religious freedoms. Though in many ways the two overlap, the dignity of the human comes before the honor or worship of any god(s.) It's no one's place to tell another person what to believe, but it's everyone's responsibility to respect the life and dignity of one another.

Please send your views to the progressives and secularists outlawing Christians. We already know that there is no way to stop Muslims. Not with a letter or legislation anyway.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:55 pm

The protection of human rights is paramount to the protection of religious freedoms.

The question is how do you get people who have never experienced human rights to see it this way. I think that is impossible.

The Afghanis have heard talk of rights from the Soviets, from the Mullahajeen, from the Taleban, and from the US. It's all been a bunch of lies while they experienced occupation and oppression.

Right now, on the ground, Karzai can only remain in place by being protected by western security contractors. He governs essentially nothing. The "Mayor of Kabul" they call him. US forces move about the country at will and kill freely. If Sharia law exists in Afghanistan, it is the responsability of George W. Bush.

Special hint for 1john (write this down for your future reference):

"Other cultures are not failed attempts at being you."

DanZ

1John2_26 · Post by **1John2_26** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:02 pm

Special hint for 1john (write this down for your future reference):

"Other cultures are not failed attempts at being you."

Well thank you for the special treatment. I'll bet though, if my advice were followed there would be no women wearing burkas and no one being beheaded. There still wouldn't be much porno but there would be a lot of little league uniforms to be passed out.

But that's just me.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:06 am

The history of Islam was war from its founding prophet killing people that would not "submit" to Islam (redundant huh?) to three-minutes ago. The prophet Mohammad got some kind of bad communication from angel calling itself Gabriel, as the Qur'an, is wrong about Biblical facts. Of course the Muslims solve this by claiming that Jews and Christians for some reasons changed the text of the Bible that was Muslim-supporting hundreds of years before Mohammad would be born. It makes no sense, but that is Islam for you. My ignorance about Islam is no where to be found.

Hmm saying the koran has its biblical facts wrong, thats just plain crazy two religious texts not being in full agreement, just like the multitude of christian sects they simply have a different interpretation of things. As far as islam being violent, yes much of its early history was plagued by wars as it expanded but you forget to mention the approximately 500 years in which islam was for the most part peaceful

And Christians rose to fight against the Nazi's that believed in the religion of Aryanism. As well as other Germanic religions that drove the Nazi's.

If that was true the nazi party would have been put down very early. What other germanic religions are you talking about, you can't be talking of any christian sect since you already mentioned that?

I am no hypocrite. I do not change the Gospel. Please read it and compare it to people that can kill anyone. WRONG, is a word that the ignorant do not want to "hear." I have just proven I am not wrong about your claims of my being ignorant.

I've heard that a couple things have happened since the gospels were written, how about the inquisition or the childrens crusade for starters.

Please send your views to the progressives and secularists outlawing Christians. We already know that there is no way to stop Muslims. Not with a letter or legislation anyway.

And now you advocate a new crusade to stop those "evil" muslims, seems like you want to be more like those you claim to hate. Call me crazy but has anyone actually listened to what they say instead of writing them off as heretical muslims?

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:16 am

Freedom like religion is for people that I agree with and more important they agree with me.
Islam is like both the Hebrew religions and the Christians. At one point they suffer on a superficial level from monotheism. Both Jews and Muslims have a point with the charge that many Christians have 2 or 3 Gods. Despite the creative defenses, it is still a mystery that masks the bi-polar God of the monotheist whose love is only for the elect.
Religion must serve both social and personal needs.
I like the freedom to think and feel as I see fit. I like to think of my self as a freethinker
That is like every one else, not so free as we might think.

1John2_26 wrote:

Can't the garden-variety Atheist just say "I'm OK with killing Christians anytime, anywhere, anyhow?" If Rahman was trying to find his Broke Back buddy, the tone would be far different from the anti-Christ crowd.

You sure know how to poke a gay whenever you can pop them in. I am seeing a pattern.
Why would you think atheist would want to kill you or anyone for that matter?

McCulloch

If our methods are logic, persuasion and knowledge, I am with you. If your methods are intolerance and suppression of human rights, it is wrong.

Beautifully said, the means should justify the ends.

1John2_26 wrote:

It makes no sense, but that is Islam for you. My ignorance about Islam is no where to be found.

Some how I think your right is some twisted way.

1John2_26 wrote:

I am no hypocrite. I do not change the Gospel. Please read it and compare it to people that can kill anyone. WRONG, is a word that the ignorant do not want to "hear." I have just proven I am not wrong about your claims of my being ignorant.

If you read the Hebrew Scriptures you will find all kinds of death and killing. Even in the name of God.
Read the New Testament and you find the same thing only coming soon as the Christians giggle and dance with glee over their salvation and the death of most of humanity.
I think you might have more in common then you think with Islam. They don’t like gays either. God told them not too in the Koran.

1John2_26 wrote:

Please send your views to the progressives and secularists outlawing Christians. We already know that there is no way to stop Muslims. Not with a letter or legislation anyway.

That is not going on Al; you’re the one with the outlawing bug up their butt.
Why do you have to be so weird? Where do you get this stuff? Your fantasy world would make a very lurid novel.

1John2_26 · Post by **1John2_26** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:32 am

Cathar:
You sure know how to poke a gay whenever you can pop them in. I am seeing a pattern.
Why would you think atheist would want to kill you or anyone for that matter?

The atheists tried just that in Russia and China.

I am just another free thinker.

Was Hitler a Christian?

What is "the" Swastika?

The following sounds very similar to the secular-atheist-progressive-gay-liberal so vocal these days in opposing the little Christian.

The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday: It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:06 am

1John2_26 wrote:The history of Islam was war from its founding prophet killing people that would not "submit" to Islam (redundant huh?) to three-minutes ago. The prophet Mohammad got some kind of bad communication from angel calling itself Gabriel, as the Qur'an, is wrong about Biblical facts. Of course the Muslims solve this by claiming that Jews and Christians for some reasons changed the text of the Bible that was Muslim-supporting hundreds of years before Mohammad would be born. It makes no sense, but that is Islam for you. My ignorance about Islam is no where to be found.

What you fail to address is that religion, any religion, does not stand alone as an absolute. You assume much about Islam, but fail to critically ask: "why?" "The" history of Islam is multi-faceted and was not centered solely around expansion through war. Rather than make educated statements, you over-generalize and sensationalize issues showing that your knowledge of Islam is quite limited. Being ignorant of the issues isn't necessarily bad; but once you start making claims about other peoples, cultures, and religions without sufficient analysis of the matter and of yourself, you run the risk of sounding like a bigot. For the future- study the humanist tradition within Islam; also, learn more about the fact that "free thinkers" like yourself owe a lot to Islam.

So it was Quakers threatening to kill Abdul Rahman? It was Rosacrucians that flew planes into the Twin Towers in New York? It was Raelians that beheahed people today in the middle east?

It was Muslims doing what Muslims have done unreported since Mohammad raided caravans. Though I may be ignorant of the numbers of people killed by Muslims though. That I must confess. We have only had news crews in the Middle east for a few years.

Yes, individuals claiming to be Muslims terrorized America. Does that mean that they responsibly followed the tenets of their faith? Perhaps, did their limited understanding of Islam coupled with a multitude of other pressures create a lens of hatred through which they saw the world? Could it be that the reality is more complex than "It was Muslims doing what Muslims have done..."

Quote:
don't you realize that 98% of the populous in Germany was Christian during the Holocaust?

And Christians rose to fight against the Nazi's that believed in the religion of Aryanism. As well as other Germanic religions that drove the Nazi's. You should study the religious side of the Third Reich. Discovery has a few Dvd's that can help you learn all about it.

Some Christians did, most did nothing. Nazis used Christian scriptures to legitimize what they were doing. Rather than watch tv programs, perhaps you should start with, I don't know, a book. Try The Destruction of the European Jews for starters. It's pretty comprehensive for a first read, but it addresses well the role religion played before, during, and after the rise of the Nazi party in Germany.

meeble · Post by **meeble** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:30 pm

If you read the Hebrew Scriptures you will find all kinds of death and killing. Even in the name of God.
Read the New Testament and you find the same thing only coming soon as the Christians giggle and dance with glee over their salvation and the death of most of humanity.
I think you might have more in common then you think with Islam. They don’t like gays either. God told them not too in the Koran.

Firstly, lots of Christians (the Crusades are worth a mention) have killed in the name of God.

Secondly, giggling and dancing with glee and some kind of sick superiority doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Thirdly, what does sexual orientation have to do with this discussion?

Personally...

From a moral/ethical standpoint, I think a secular government which allows for freedom to practice any religion or not to is more desirable but changing a whole country's attitude towards the relationship between religion and the law is bordering on the impossible and the Western world somehow forcing such a change would probably stir up so much hate and resentment that it would probably have the opposite effect.