Donald Trump has exposed 'evangelical' voters

[Danmark]

I was raised as an evangelical. I WAS an evangelical. It is clear that Trump is not an authentic evangelical; he knows next to nothing about the Bible and has lived and continues to live and promote a lifestyle that is antithetical to evangelical Christianity.
Yet he is doing very well, better than any other Republican candidate, among evangelicals.

My conclusion is that evangelicals care much more about secular politics than about true Christian values. Has Trump support among 'evangelicals' exposed the fact the 'evangelical voting block' is not based on Christian values, but on secular political values?

[WinePusher]

Sorry WP, not going to play your teacher to student game along with its abusive nuances.

Sorry Danmark, but it's called debating.

Do you consider the Economist a left leaning rag and of no value?

Nah, I used to read the Economist regularly. But, if you had chosen to actually respond to the points I raised you would've realized that I didn't criticize the Economist, instead I pointed out that comparative, cross country analysis of economic mobility does NOT produce useful results or insights due to extraneous factors that aren't taken into account, such as population, multiculturalism, etc.

Economists disagree. We have wide ranges from Reich to Milton Friedman to Keynes.

Funny that you call Reich an economist even though he doesn't have a PhD in the field. Seeing you cite a lawyer to support your false ideas about economics is kind of like how creationists cite mechanical engineers to support their false ideas about biology.

I am not an economist and am not going to travel down a path you want to set out, under your terms.

What on earth? It's called debating. If you have an issue with what I wrote, refute it with an argument.

I'm satisfied the article in the Economist, which you've ignored, sets out exactly what I claimed, that there is greater social mobility in Europe, and that Americans tend to misunderstand the fact they actually have NOT suffered a significant decrease in social mobility.

You continue to persist with your false claims even though it's been pointed out that Harvard economists (Chetty and Katz) have shown there has been NO significant decrease in inter-generational mobility. You also imply that socialism is the reason why countries like Denmark have high levels of mobility. I asked you to explain your thought process on this, yet you didn't.

Either explain how socialism (government ownership of the means of production) can lead to higher inter-generational mobility. Or, recognize the fact that there is NO causal mechanism between socialism and mobility, and that the two variables aren't even remotely correlated.

The demagogues like Trump have whipped them into a frenzy by their scaremongering.

As bad as Trump is, Trump > Sanders.

[Furrowed Brow]

So, have you ever taken the time to ask yourself why Denmark has an abnormally high level of mobility compared with not only the United States, but also other EUROPEAN countries like France and the UK?

The US offers one of the worst countries for inequality (edit: of developed countries) on many measures. The question of mobility is tied to the question of inequality. The UK is also one of the worse offenders. And it is an offence judged by mental health rates, murder rates, health rates, school drop outs, etcetera, ... and social mobility.

Here is a TED talk by Richard Wilkinson. Wilkinson is Professor Emeritus of Social Epidemiology at the University of Nottingham. I trust his qualifications meet WinePusher's approval.

[YouTube][/YouTube]

The chart for social mobility is how at around 8:20. The US scores poorly. The UK poorly too. The various Charts Wilkinson pulls up are an indictment of the US system.

As Wilkinson point out in this video, if American want to live the American dream they should go to Denmark.

If you think that Denmark's success is due to "socialism" can you provide a coherent explanation of how socialism contributes to economic mobility and a means to test it?

The most equal countries in the world with the best social mobility according to Wilkinson are Japan and the Nordic countries. Using a wide set of data Wilkinson points to a general social dysfunction related to inequality.

Wilkinson compares Sweden to Japan. Sweden has wide difference in earning but it redistributes with taxation, Japan has much lower difference in earnings before tax.

This does not exactly answer WinePusher's demand for a connection between socialism and social mobility. However we look at the data it is clear America followed by the UK are not the models to follow.

[Danmark]

Trump is the first candidate for the nomination for the Presidency that actually seems nuts. He is a classic narcissist who appears to have no inner core of values except self promotion. He is capable of constantly telling us how smart he is, then turning around and telling us he is as humble as the Pope. This is not just lying, this reveals a lack of self knowledge and ability to compartmentalize that should frighten us all, considering as President he could destroy most of the industrial world with the push of a button.

I am surprised none of his GOP rivals, or 'Hillary Sanders' has not yet run ads like those LBJ ran against Barry Goldwater in 1964. Goldwater, BTW, I supported then and would have voted for if I had been old enough. Hindsight has also been kind to him.
Anyway, the old campaign button, "In your guts, you know he's nuts" could be revived with Trump's photo replacing Barry's. As for the famous ad:

[Wootah]

Trump is the first candidate for the nomination for the Presidency that actually seems nuts. He is a classic narcissist who appears to have no inner core of values except self promotion. He is capable of constantly telling us how smart he is, then turning around and telling us he is as humble as the Pope. This is not just lying, this reveals a lack of self knowledge and ability to compartmentalize that should frighten us all, considering as President he could destroy most of the industrial world with the push of a button.

I am surprised none of his GOP rivals, or 'Hillary Sanders' has not yet run ads like those LBJ ran against Barry Goldwater in 1964. Goldwater, BTW, I supported then and would have voted for if I had been old enough. Hindsight has also been kind to him.
Anyway, the old campaign button, "In your guts, you know he's nuts" could be revived with Trump's photo replacing Barry's. As for the famous ad:

Scott Adams of Dilbert fame seems to be one of the best Trump commentators writing at the moment and he addresses the narcissistic nature of Trump here.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1399107045 ... ion-series

Donald Trump is the most famous narcissist in the world. That fact probably seems obvious to you, given Trump’s continuous self-promotion. Mental health experts agree with your assessment. Trump hits most of the checkboxes for the diagnosis.

The biggest tell for narcissism is a belief that you are better than other people. For example, if Trump believed he could run for President – with almost no political experience – and dominate the Republican party in only a few short months, that would be an example of…

Okay, wait. That one doesn’t work. Apparently his self-image was spot-on in that one specific case. It was the rest of us who got that one wrong.

I really think this forum would be better served discussing policy rather than ad hominems. Use Facebook for politiking.

[Danmark]

Trump is the first candidate for the nomination for the Presidency that actually seems nuts. He is a classic narcissist who appears to have no inner core of values except self promotion. He is capable of constantly telling us how smart he is, then turning around and telling us he is as humble as the Pope. This is not just lying, this reveals a lack of self knowledge and ability to compartmentalize that should frighten us all, considering as President he could destroy most of the industrial world with the push of a button.

I am surprised none of his GOP rivals, or 'Hillary Sanders' has not yet run ads like those LBJ ran against Barry Goldwater in 1964. Goldwater, BTW, I supported then and would have voted for if I had been old enough. Hindsight has also been kind to him.
Anyway, the old campaign button, "In your guts, you know he's nuts" could be revived with Trump's photo replacing Barry's. As for the famous ad:

Scott Adams of Dilbert fame seems to be one of the best Trump commentators writing at the moment and he addresses the narcissistic nature of Trump here.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1399107045 ... ion-series

Donald Trump is the most famous narcissist in the world. That fact probably seems obvious to you, given Trump’s continuous self-promotion. Mental health experts agree with your assessment. Trump hits most of the checkboxes for the diagnosis.

The biggest tell for narcissism is a belief that you are better than other people. For example, if Trump believed he could run for President – with almost no political experience – and dominate the Republican party in only a few short months, that would be an example of…

Okay, wait. That one doesn’t work. Apparently his self-image was spot-on in that one specific case. It was the rest of us who got that one wrong.

I really think this forum would be better served discussing policy rather than ad hominems. Use Facebook for politiking.

Wootah,
the Dilbert blog you posted makes some good points, but first let me address your last statement. This section of our forum is entitled " Politics and Religion." As such it is at least as appropriate a forum as Facebook. 2d, a candidate's personality is a proper subject for discussion when we are talking about electing the most powerful person on the planet who, not incidentally, has the power to destroy the world.

In Trump we have a man who is constantly bragging yet claims he is humble.
We have a man who pretends shame at Vicente Fox's F-bomb, saying he would never use such language.

Donald J. TrumpVerified account
�@realDonaldTrump
FMR PRES of Mexico, Vicente Fox horribly used the F word when discussing the wall. He must apologize! If I did that there would be a uproar!

This is one reason why I think Trump is not just a liar and hypocrite, but crazy- out of touch with reality and his own language in public discourse.


If I used on this forum just one of the sentences Trump used repeatedly, I'd be banned from the forum. Yet Trump claims he wouldn't talk like that and feigns astonishment V. Fox used the word once.

Please watch/listen to the video before responding.
The video proves Trump is either an unrepentant liar or has completely lost touch with reality. And THIS is the guy you want to have his finger on the nuclear trigger?

[Danmark]

From an Anglican Priest on why, as a Christian, he will not vote for Trump:

"I do not believe that Donald Trump has the best interest of our country in mind. Rather, I believe he has shown concern only for himself and his personal advancement. His focus on himself as a “winner� and others as “losers,�...
I believe that Donald Trump holds and proclaims racist, sexist, and violent attitudes that are in direct opposition to the Christian message,....
I believe that Donald Trump is taking the Name of the Lord in vain. He is misusing the Faith by claiming to be “a great Christian� while his actions—... cynical pandering to evangelicals, ownership of a strip club, his hatred for Muslims and others—belie this claim.... I believe he will use military force in ungodly ways. He could make America into a true villain on the world stage, which will only raise up countless new terrorists and destabilize an unstable world. "
http://www.thomasmckenzie.com/blog/this ... nald-trump

[Elijah John]

I would just like to ask Evangelical Trump supporters this question with language you may appreciate.

From a Believer's perspective, do you think God will spare our US from judgement if we elect an arrogant, boastful person as our leader? In effect, a megolomaniac?

It is said that a nation gets the leader it deserves. And this is what an ignorant nation (fed on reality TV and the values of pride, fame and materialism ) will get in the arrogant and insulting Donald Trump.

How do you think Trump's behavior and rhetoric square with the values of the Kingdom, as Yahshua taught in the Beattitides? My guess? Rotten tree, rotten fruit.

Do you think YHVH will actually bless our nation for electing Donald Trump?

Lincoln advised we listen to the "better angels of our nature". Trump, on the other hand, appeals to the worst in us. Donald Trump is no Abraham Lincoln.

[Danmark]

I would just like to ask Evangelical Trump supporters this question with language you may appreciate.

From a Believer's perspective, do you think God will spare our US from judgement if we elect an arrogant, boastful person as our leader? In effect, a megolomaniac?

I'd be interested if evangelicals have any faith based reasons for voting for Trump. I can understand if they vote for him because they like his economic or political philosophy, but I can't see any reason to vote for him because he claims to be a Christian.

This does not apply to Trump, but I would be very concerned about having in office a person who believes in the imminent coming of the apocalypse. It isn't limited to CUFI or Christians, but people who believe we are an invulnerable 'Christian Nation' or that we have to support Israel right or wrong, or play some role to pave the way for the coming 'rapture' or end of the world scare me to death. I am very wary of leaders or voters who mix in their religious beliefs or fantasies secular or religious with rational fact based data.

George W. Bush claimed he listened to his 'heavenly father.' I don't know if this had anything to do with his disastrous decision to involve us in our adventure in Iraq, but he claims he prayed about his decisions. I think religious faith in general has the potential of directing leaders along dangerous paths. I would much rather have a non religious person in the white house, or a religionist who only used his general religious values re: loving one's fellow man as guidance for decisions.

[Elijah John]

I would just like to ask Evangelical Trump supporters this question with language you may appreciate.

From a Believer's perspective, do you think God will spare our US from judgement if we elect an arrogant, boastful person as our leader? In effect, a megolomaniac?

I'd be interested if evangelicals have any faith based reasons for voting for Trump. I can understand if they vote for him because they like his economic or political philosophy, but I can't see any reason to vote for him because he claims to be a Christian.

I heard an explanations from pastor Robert Jeffress and Jeffy Falwell Jr. They believe Evangelicals are tired of Republicans who may agree with their values, but are ineffective at implementing them.

They think Trump can at least secure our borders, fix our economy and keep us militarily safe.

They have given social issues secondary importance. Apparently they don't consider the character of the President important anymore either.

The phrase "selling out" comes to mind.

George W. Bush claimed he listened to his 'heavenly father.'

I think too much has been made of this. Any believer who prays, in effect, "listens to his Heavenly Father."

I don't know if this had anything to do with his disastrous decision to involve us in our adventure in Iraq, but he claims he prayed about his decisions. I think religious faith in general has the potential of directing leaders along dangerous paths. I would much rather have a non religious person in the white house, or a religionist who only used his general religious values re: loving one's fellow man as guidance for decisions.

Apocalyptic potential perhaps, in theory. Radical Muslims may seek to hasten the end to facilitate the appearance of the "hidden Imam" (12th?) or somesuch, but most Evangelicals show far more restraint. It is in the interest of Evangelical leaders to extend the life of the earth, the enviroment and in it's inhabitants, that "none may perish but all come to repentance".

Only nut-jobs want to take the themselves down and the planet with them.

I agree with your concluding sentence though:

I would much rather have a non religious person in the white house, or a religionist who only used his general religious values re: loving one's fellow man as guidance for decisions.

My emphasis in bold.

[Wootah]

From an Anglican Priest on why, as a Christian, he will not vote for Trump:

"I do not believe that Donald Trump has the best interest of our country in mind. Rather, I believe he has shown concern only for himself and his personal advancement. His focus on himself as a “winner� and others as “losers,�...
I believe that Donald Trump holds and proclaims racist, sexist, and violent attitudes that are in direct opposition to the Christian message,....
I believe that Donald Trump is taking the Name of the Lord in vain. He is misusing the Faith by claiming to be “a great Christian� while his actions—... cynical pandering to evangelicals, ownership of a strip club, his hatred for Muslims and others—belie this claim.... I believe he will use military force in ungodly ways. He could make America into a true villain on the world stage, which will only raise up countless new terrorists and destabilize an unstable world. "
http://www.thomasmckenzie.com/blog/this ... nald-trump

Excluding some specifics in that quote which politician can't that be said about? If sexual immorality is such an issue is Hillary electable?

When Madeleine Albright was asked about the dead in Iraq she said that the price was worth it.

Trump is the only one that is anti war in the republican field that I can tell. He would not have invaded Iraq.