Obama Violating Separation of Church and State?

[East of Eden]

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/09/22/i ... obamacare/

In light of the above link, the questions for debate are:

1. Is Obama violating the separation of church and state?

2. Would it be OK if a Republican president urged pastors to work against same-sex marriage initiatives?

3. Aren't churches supposed to keep out of partisan political battles to maintain their tax-exempt status?

[East of Eden]

East of Eden

Cite? I've never seen a church tell people who to vote for, although they do speak on moral issues as they have a right to.

"Setting the stage for a collision of religion and politics, Christian ministers from California and 21 other states will use their pulpits Sunday to deliver political sermons or endorse presidential candidates -- defying a federal ban on campaigning by nonprofit groups.

The pastors' advocacy could violate the Internal Revenue Service's rules against political speech, with the purpose of triggering IRS investigations.

That would allow their patron, the conservative legal group Alliance Defense Fund, to challenge the IRS' rules, a risky strategy that one defense fund attorney acknowledges could cost the churches their tax-exempt status. Congress made it illegal in 1954 for tax-exempt groups to publicly support or oppose political candidates.

"I'm going to talk about the un-biblical stands that Barack Obama takes. Nobody who follows the Bible can vote for him," said the Rev. Wiley S. Drake of First Southern Baptist Church of Buena Park. "We may not be politically correct, but we are going to be biblically correct. We are going to vote for those who follow the Bible.""

Grumpy

I say pay the tax and endorse the candidate you want. The practices above are hardly widespread.

[East of Eden]

I think we are missing an important point in Obama's conference call.

Even in the biased article it stated:

Obama told leaders from across the religious spectrum on the conference call, organized by the Health and Human Services Center for Faith-Based and Community Partnerships

Granted these are more than likely mostly Christian based groups but I am unwilling to make that assumption unless an list of attendees can be provided.

While these are likely tied to some churches, not all faith-based community groups can be considered "Churches". I feel it is an unfair assumption to say that Obama is speaking to specifically Churches which implies Christians.

OK, so if a conservative told a wide spectrum of faith-based community groups to work against gay marriage, would you be OK with that?

[Board]

OK, so if a conservative told a wide spectrum of faith-based community groups to work against gay marriage, would you be OK with that?

Again not a fair comparison.

The Health Care Bill passed. Gay marriage has not.

Obama did not ask these groups to work for the health care bill, only to educate people regarding it. "Spread the word"

Would the president have the right to do what you suggest? Of course he does. Is freedom of speech only for the people and not the president? As long as they do not try to pass something into law that is of religious nature then he can say whatever he wants to say... that is if he wants to be reelected.

[East of Eden]

OK, so if a conservative told a wide spectrum of faith-based community groups to work against gay marriage, would you be OK with that?

Again not a fair comparison.

The Health Care Bill passed. Gay marriage has not.

So what?

Obama did not ask these groups to work for the health care bill, only to educate people regarding it. "Spread the word"

OK, would it be OK for a conservative to ask faith groups to educate people about gay marriage and spread the word?

Would the president have the right to do what you suggest? Of course he does. Is freedom of speech only for the people and not the president? As long as they do not try to pass something into law that is of religious nature then he can say whatever he wants to say... that is if he wants to be reelected.

But he has told faith groups to work for Obamacare from religious convictions. I have no problem with that, I'm just noting the double standard.

[Board]

The Health Care Bill passed. Gay marriage has not.

So what?

So you can't draw a fair comparison between the two. One is Law, the other is not. A President appealing to groups to assist in educating the populace on the new bill is not the same as a president appealing to groups to work against something that is not law.

Obama did not ask these groups to work for the health care bill, only to educate people regarding it. "Spread the word"

OK, would it be OK for a conservative to ask faith groups to educate people about gay marriage and spread the word?

We have freedom of speech do we not? Where have I said that I am against this in any way? I think you are trying to argue with me when there is no argument to be had.

Would the president have the right to do what you suggest? Of course he does. Is freedom of speech only for the people and not the president? As long as they do not try to pass something into law that is of religious nature then he can say whatever he wants to say... that is if he wants to be reelected.

But he has told faith groups to work for Obamacare from religious convictions. I have no problem with that, I'm just noting the double standard.

The part I marked as bold in your comment needs to be proven. I do not see anywhere in this whole issue where is asking these groups to work from religious convictions. If anything he is asking them to assist in educating people about the law. There is no double standard.

[Board]

I say pay the tax and endorse the candidate you want. The practices above are hardly widespread.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index ... for_r.html

U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick and her closest challenger, State Sen. Hansen Clarke, went to church Sunday morning to woo voters in Detroit.
While Clarke has polling data on his side, Kilpatrick has a reverend.

I would say it is more widespread than you might think.

[micatala]

Many churches go so far as to issue voting cards to tell their congregation how to vote during election season much like unions do.

Cite? I've never seen a church tell people who to vote for, although they do speak on moral issues as they have a right to.

I have been in the pews when this has happened in more than one conservative church.



I think if you spend 30 seconds searching, you'll find plenty of other examples. Have you not heard of the protests going on with respect to this issue?

http://pewforum.org/Church-State-Law/Pa ... ocacy.aspx

[Wyvern]

Obama did not ask these groups to work for the health care bill, only to educate people regarding it. "Spread the word"

OK, would it be OK for a conservative to ask faith groups to educate people about gay marriage and spread the word?

Considering the groups responsible for the majority of funding for the gay marriage repeal drive in California faith groups have already been spreading the word.

Would the president have the right to do what you suggest? Of course he does. Is freedom of speech only for the people and not the president? As long as they do not try to pass something into law that is of religious nature then he can say whatever he wants to say... that is if he wants to be reelected.

But he has told faith groups to work for Obamacare from religious convictions. I have no problem with that, I'm just noting the double standard.

Most religions state they seek truth don't they? If so it makes perfect sense then to use ones religious convictions to get the truth out about healthcare reform instead of the widely disseminated fabrications and lies spread by the opposition.

[East of Eden]

Most religions state they seek truth don't they? If so it makes perfect sense then to use ones religious convictions to get the truth out about healthcare reform instead of the widely disseminated fabrications and lies spread by the opposition.

How low do polls for Obamacare have to go before you wake up and smell the coffee that Americans soundly reject it, rather than alledging they've been lied to? When Bush's Iraq campaign was low in the polls did you hear the GOP saying people have been lied to about it?

[Wyvern]

Most religions state they seek truth don't they? If so it makes perfect sense then to use ones religious convictions to get the truth out about healthcare reform instead of the widely disseminated fabrications and lies spread by the opposition.

How low do polls for Obamacare have to go before you wake up and smell the coffee that Americans soundly reject it, rather than alledging they've been lied to? When Bush's Iraq campaign was low in the polls did you hear the GOP saying people have been lied to about it?

Even if the GOP wanted to say anything about being lied to about Iraq they couldn't because they would be complaining about a republican president instead you heard complaints from many quarters about the lies about WMD's. I'm not alledging there has been widespread lying by the opposition about health care reform I'm stating plainly that is exactly what the opposition to the reform measures have been doing. Everything from death panels to rationing to massively increased costs and of course the always popular complaint how this is a government takeover of healthcare. Many of these lies have even been aired out on these forums. I reject the newspeak that is drifting into our daily language where lies are truth and truth lies.