Obama's apologies to the muslim community

[HappyTikiman]

In light of Obama's speech to the Muslim community I think we should have a little debate.

Intro
I live in middle Tennessee and the only talk show radio stations we have is a heavy republican oriented talk radio, and national public radio. NPR was playing the usual classical music, but its not very good while doing hard labour. On the other station. Phil Valentine, local republican talk show hero, had managed to get pretty heated about Obama's recent speech. He did mention some points that I would like to present to this forum.

Questions

1. Is the United States going to become a Muslim dominated country?

2. Will Obama's apologies be accepted by the Muslim community?

3. Should the nation worry about its president's new apologetic direction?

4. Would this help or hender the United States relations with the world community?

Debate Material

Obama's speech, scroll down on the webpage

[East of Eden]

This definition of fascism, though adequate, does not exactly fit the 9/11 hijackers. Islamic fundamentalism is 'obsessively preoccupied with decline, humiliation and victimhood' and does pursue 'cults of unity, energy and purity', and they are undeniably militant - however, Islamic fundamentalism is not a mass-based party, they are not nationalists by any stretch of the imagination (indeed, they decry nationalism as one of the outside influences weakening Islamic cultural unity). Islamic fundamentalism has a number of parallels in fascism, but calling it fascism is historically inappropriate.

It sounds like other than the nationalism part, you agree with my definition of fascism as it applies to the Jihadists.

The classic examples of repressive Christian states would by Fascist Italy, Vichy France and Falangist Spain. All espoused, to various degrees, ideologies of actual clerical fascism or various brands of nationalist Christianity - and they had no problem brutalising or killing people they didn't like.

So you have no exaples today, just some questionable ones from history. None of the states you mention in your post with the possible exception of Italy were expansionists. None of these examples killed their adversaries due to the teachings of Christ, who harmed no one. You don't judge a philosophy by its misuse. The Jihadists criminals ARE acting in accordance with the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

Going back a bit further into the 19th century, the CSA is also an example - a country based on a vicious formal slave system based in supposedly Christian beliefs.

Based on a wrong interpretation of Christianity that was counter to the beliefs of the abolitionists and people like Wilberforce who ended the slave trade.

[MagusYanam]

It sounds like other than the nationalism part, you agree with my definition of fascism as it applies to the Jihadists.

I do - but if it's fascism in Islam you're looking for, you have to examine the Arab and Indian Muslim nationalist movements rather than the jihadist movement, which is either pre-nationalist or explicitly anti-nationalist.

So you have no exaples today, just some questionable ones from history. None of the states you mention in your post with the possible exception of Italy were expansionists. None of these examples killed their adversaries due to the teachings of Christ, who harmed no one. You don't judge a philosophy by its misuse. The Jihadists criminals ARE acting in accordance with the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

Firstly, you did not specify that you were looking only for contemporary examples. Secondly, you did not specify that you were looking for expressly expansionist states, only repressive ones. Thirdly, the same trends toward nationalism and Manichaean paranoia in conservative forms of Christianity which led to the abuses of the fascists in 20th-century Europe have not been adequately addressed - they often resurface (to name just one example) in fundamentalist American Protestantism.

Fourthly, you are applying a fairly blatant double standard. Yes, the fascists and the Confederates abused Christianity by picking-and-choosing what verses to follow - just as the Islamic fundamentalists today are abusing Islam in much the same way. Muhammad clearly did not condone the killing of innocent people, or the wilful disruption of the peace, even against non-Muslims: 'Had God willed it, He would have made them dominate you and so if they leave you alone and do not fight you and offer you peace, then God allows you no way against them' (Qur'an 4:90) and 'If your enemy inclines toward peace then you too should seek peace and put your trust in God' (Qur'an 8:61). Heck, the Qur'an also states that 'there shall be no compulsion in matters of religion' (2:256)!

There are definite differences between Islam and Christianity. Philosophically, Islam trends far more closely toward political realism than Christianity does - Muhammad wasn't just a 'prophet' but also a politician, a deal-breaker and a general. (Jesus, on the other hand, was a working-class carpenter, a healer and a radical rabbi.) But in both there lies the potential for dialogue and mutual understanding - which is what Christ and Paul taught us in dealing with non-believers, and which Obama is currently striving for.

[I AM ALL I AM]

AIPAC, including other lobby groups control the funding of presidential candidates. They do so BECAUSE they get a 'pay off'. In other words, the president does their bidding.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned banking organisation that controls the issuing of money in the U.S.A., which in turn controls the financial market. Through the controlling of the finances of a country, those in control have the power to influence all aspects of the country, from the individual to the president.

If you're saying any presidential candidate is part of the Establishment, I would agree with that.

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

http://www.ae911truth.org/

There are also plenty of more websites that you can google to find alternative views that completely debunk the 'official story'.

I'm aware of this theory, and consider these groups fringe nutcases not worthy to be taken seriously. BTW, who do they think was behind 9/11?

The same can be said of 'radical christianity'.

If you had examples of Christian repressive governments a la the Taliban, you might have a point.

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Probably a reference to Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. The punishment of those who rebelled and actively opposed the king (verse 14) was much more severe than that of the negligent servant.

Exodus 22:20
You must kill those who worship another god.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.

Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.

Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own.

Being a christian, you follow the christian doctrine, which, as shown with the above quotes, is as intolerant of other religions and those that do not follow the christian religion as the beliefs of others you accuse of being fascists.

It might apply to me were I a bronze-age member of the theocracy of Israel. Those commandments were to preserve the nation of Isael as the chosen vehicle for the Savior of Mankind, Jesus Christ. lFunny if that applies to Christians none of them are doing that today. I guess Mother Teresa had it all backwards, huh? The only thing you're demonstating here is your cluelessness of 'the Christian doctrine'. BTW, 'Christian' is normally capitalized.

Now, for a third time in a post, I will ask you what evidence do you have that 9/11 was perpetrated by "Islamofascists" ?

From Wikipedia:

Attackers and their motivation

Within hours of the attacks, the FBI was able to determine the names and in many cases the personal details of the suspected pilots and hijackers.[73][74] Mohamed Atta's luggage, which did not make the connection from his Portland flight onto Flight 11, contained papers that revealed the identity of all 19 hijackers (all men), and other important clues about their plans, motives, and backgrounds.[75] On the day of the attacks, the National Security Agency intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden, as did German intelligence agencies.[76][77] On September 27, 2001, the FBI released photos of the 19 hijackers, along with information about the possible nationalities and aliases of many.[78] Fifteen of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.[79] Mohamed Atta was the ringleader of the 19 hijackers.[80] The hijackers were well-educated, mature adults, whose belief systems were fully formed.[81]

The FBI investigation into the attacks, code named operation PENTTBOM, was the largest and most complex investigation in the history of the FBI, involving over 7,000 special agents.[82] Through interrogations of USS Cole bombing suspects in Yemen, the FBI was able to link the hijackers to al-Qaeda.[83] The United States government determined that al-Qaeda, headed by Osama bin Laden, bore responsibility for the attacks, with the FBI stating "evidence linking al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable".[84] The Government of the United Kingdom reached the same conclusion regarding al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11 attacks.[85]

G'day East of Eden.

In response to the first part of your reply, yes they are a part of the "Establishment".

@ your 2nd response - You can choose to believe whatever you so desire, it doesn't alter the facts though. Merely labelling others as "nutcases not worthy to be taken seriously" is in the least dismissive, otherwise ignorant.

What about the information provided about 9/11 by qualified architects and engineers do you find to be "not worthy to be taken seriously" ?

I believe that it was perpetrated by those that control the 'war industry'.

@ your 3rd response - In Australia, John Howard won his last election on the lie that granting equality to same-sex-oriented citizens would undermine the state – a lie promulgated [in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence] by the powerful christian lobby. According to Cardinal Pell and his Anglican and fundamentalist bedfellows, so great was this threat to national security that it took precedence over terrorism, the economy and all else, requiring a special session of parliament be convened to change the constitution to ensure that same-sex-oriented people can never have equality in Australia, and their oppression will continue – along with the hate crimes, murders, bashings, and suicides that are always the result of State-sponsored oppression.

The U.S.A. is another example of an oppressive christian government. G.W. Bush declared himself a christian and sanctioned torture of people without trial at Guantanamo Bay. He introduced the Homeland Security Act and USA Patriot Act, which contravened the constitution. All of these are oppressive acts of fascism.

The occupation of Iraq is an expansionist policy.

You appear quick to label others without looking 'in your own backyard'.

@ your 4th response - Are you saying that 'Jesus' was alive after AD70 ?

@ your 5th response - Lieutenant General A.A. Vandergrift former Commandant of the Untied States Marine Corps said the following: It is literally true-there are no atheists in foxholes-religion is precious under fire."

The foxhole is wherever one has taken a position against an enemy. It is both a defensive and offensive position which means that those who are on the front lines of battle as well as those who pray from home both occupy the foxhole.

At Force Ministries we are committed to the support and the enrichment of those who have taken up these positions. To the soldier, airmen, marine, sailor, coast guardsmen, police officer, or federal law enforcement personnel our commitment is to encourage Faith and Support Christ centered duty.

http://www.forceministries.com/

Divine Force Ministries is an Apostolic Evangelistic Ministry. Our mission is to take the Gospel of Salvation, with an end-times prophetic message, to every corner of the world! We follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to work as God directs under the promised end-times outpouring.

The final days of this world are upon us and we are in the midst of a great Spiritual War. We believe the last thing God wants His people to be focused on is prosperity! It is God's will for His people to prosper, but it is more important for them to experience the gift of Salvation and gifts of the Holy Spirit. We believe the time is now that the message of Matthew 28:19 must be completely fulfilled: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." We must go into all the world and preach the gospel and see people baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit!

We as believers can reduce the number of casualties that are lost in these final battles, but only if we are willing to fight for every single soul! God's Word states in Matthew 11:12 (NIV) "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it!" It is time for some forceful saints to rise up and go to war!

http://divineforceministries.com/templa ... p?id=44125

Your assumption of "cluelessness" is noted. Verbal abuse is most often used in a debate when the individual has no rebuttal.

I also note your prompting of using a capital 'C' when spelling christianity. I understand that it is "normal", but I do not use it because I find nothing worthwhile to denote the use of a capital 'C' in conjunction with the word christianity.

It is ironic that you label others as repressive religious fascists because they follow beliefs set out in their religious texts, but have no problem with chritians doing the same from their religious texts, even citing your religious text as reason for oppressive fascist acts .

@ your 6th response - the identities of those apparent hijackers have been shown to be falsified. At least 9 of them are still alive. The 'evidence' supporting these fallacious accusations included a passport that survived the plane crash, the subsequent explosion and demolition of one of the world trade centre towers.

Osama Bin Laden was recruited by the CIA. He was part of U.S.A.'s state sponsored terrorism in other countries .....

Prime suspect in the New York and Washington terrorists attacks, branded by the FBI as an "international terrorist" for his role in the African US embassy bombings, Saudi born Osama bin Laden was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders". 1

In 1979 "the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA" was launched in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the pro-Communist government of Babrak Kamal.2:

With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan's ISI [Inter Services Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad.3

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166,...[which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the mujahideen, and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in arms supplies -- a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987, ... as well as a "ceaseless stream" of CIA and Pentagon specialists who traveled to the secret headquarters of Pakistan's ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels.4

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) using Pakistan's military Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam:

Predominant themes were that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, that holy Islam was being violated by the atheistic Soviet troops, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.5

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html

A small amount of independent research would have provided you with the means to recognise the propaganda promulgated by the government and main stream media to justify a war that was sanctioned by the United Nations as illegal.

Further to this, you could also find out that the U.S.A. has been using depleted uranium internationally in contravention of international law.



I suggest the following documentary for further understanding ...

Beyond Treason
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0240371882

Beyond Treason focuses into the aftermath of first Gulf war and the fact that American soldiers have been suffering 15 years of post-traumatic stress disorder. Because this explanation doesn't cover all the symptoms that soldiers have had, U.S. Department of Defense's says it's a "mystery disease". The main theme of Beyond Treason is to show what really happened in the Middle-East in early 90's and how the soldiers were exposed to depleted uranium. And like if that hadn't been enough, the same soldiers got untested vaccines. Beyond Treason is a patriotic and critical documentary, that doesn't play guessing games but hits the viewer with cold, hard facts.

Few veterans and experts of Gulf War talk in front of the camera about some serious issues, and tell their views and experiences about the war and origins of the disease - and also the neglects of U.S. Army towards their own people. Doug Rokke, ex-physicist and Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project gets the main share of interview time and with a good reason. He has unquestionable amount information to tell and convinces the viewer with his self-presentation.

Although the stories of soldiers that got sick during the war, are very compelling to listen to - the film shows also horrifying images of deformed babies to stress the seriousness of the facts. Is that social pornography? Some might say it is, but my own opinion it is the real option to mainstream media, showing the true and dark side of the war. It is always tough to see mutilated bodies, but some of these people were even alive when the pictures were taken.

Besides the theme of Beyond Treason, it tells also the background of dark history of U.S. governments human experiences. Secret documents of this fact has been exposed to public lately. Projects like MKultra and Whitecoat get covered in Beyond Treason - and remember, they are not conspiracy theories but real stuff. Lewis and Riley (spokesperson of American Gulf War Veterans Association) have collected an enormous amount of evidence. Although there are not many people interviewed, there is no use to complain: with DVD, there is also CD-ROM full of real evidence: scanned documents and text that have been the base of this films revealings! A great idea, that gives Beyond Treason even more credibility.

[East of Eden]

It sounds like other than the nationalism part, you agree with my definition of fascism as it applies to the Jihadists.

I do - but if it's fascism in Islam you're looking for, you have to examine the Arab and Indian Muslim nationalist movements rather than the jihadist movement, which is either pre-nationalist or explicitly anti-nationalist.

So you have no exaples today, just some questionable ones from history. None of the states you mention in your post with the possible exception of Italy were expansionists. None of these examples killed their adversaries due to the teachings of Christ, who harmed no one. You don't judge a philosophy by its misuse. The Jihadists criminals ARE acting in accordance with the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

Firstly, you did not specify that you were looking only for contemporary examples. Secondly, you did not specify that you were looking for expressly expansionist states, only repressive ones. Thirdly, the same trends toward nationalism and Manichaean paranoia in conservative forms of Christianity which led to the abuses of the fascists in 20th-century Europe have not been adequately addressed - they often resurface (to name just one example) in fundamentalist American Protestantism.

Fourthly, you are applying a fairly blatant double standard. Yes, the fascists and the Confederates abused Christianity by picking-and-choosing what verses to follow - just as the Islamic fundamentalists today are abusing Islam in much the same way. Muhammad clearly did not condone the killing of innocent people, or the wilful disruption of the peace, even against non-Muslims: 'Had God willed it, He would have made them dominate you and so if they leave you alone and do not fight you and offer you peace, then God allows you no way against them' (Qur'an 4:90) and 'If your enemy inclines toward peace then you too should seek peace and put your trust in God' (Qur'an 8:61). Heck, the Qur'an also states that 'there shall be no compulsion in matters of religion' (2:256)!

There are definite differences between Islam and Christianity. Philosophically, Islam trends far more closely toward political realism than Christianity does - Muhammad wasn't just a 'prophet' but also a politician, a deal-breaker and a general. (Jesus, on the other hand, was a working-class carpenter, a healer and a radical rabbi.) But in both there lies the potential for dialogue and mutual understanding - which is what Christ and Paul taught us in dealing with non-believers, and which Obama is currently striving for.

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/terrorism.htm

[MagusYanam]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

On one thing all Muslims and all Christians can agree: Muhammad was not God - he was only a human being - imperfect and swayed by his circumstances.

We Christians believe that Christ was a human being, but that he was also God.

Also, the interpretation of Islam presented in the article you linked is deeply flawed - the sitemaster even put a disclaimer at the top saying that it was only one among many interpretations and that it was held by only a small group of extremists. The Qur'an and the commentaries set forth a set of guidelines under which violence is permissible - as in, no murdering of women, children or noncombatants (something the 9/11 hijackers seemed to have forgotten). Actually, the Islamic rules of warfare bear a 'striking' number of formal parallels with Christian just war theory (Charles Kimball, When Religion Becomes Evil: Five Warning Signs, 177).

[I AM ALL I AM]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

G'day East of Eden.

If you believe the doctrine that 'Jesus' IS 'God', then, as written in the bible, 'God' killed over 2 million people (plus the whole world, except a few, at one point if you believe the flood story), and so 'Jesus' is a mass murderer.

[East of Eden]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

On one thing all Muslims and all Christians can agree: Muhammad was not God - he was only a human being - imperfect and swayed by his circumstances.

We Christians believe that Christ was a human being, but that he was also God.

Also, the interpretation of Islam presented in the article you linked is deeply flawed - the sitemaster even put a disclaimer at the top saying that it was only one among many interpretations and that it was held by only a small group of extremists. The Qur'an and the commentaries set forth a set of guidelines under which violence is permissible - as in, no murdering of women, children or noncombatants (something the 9/11 hijackers seemed to have forgotten). Actually, the Islamic rules of warfare bear a 'striking' number of formal parallels with Christian just war theory (Charles Kimball, When Religion Becomes Evil: Five Warning Signs, 177).

There was an earlier, mild form of Islam in the Koran which was replaced by the violent murderous one the Jihadists follow today.

I don't think the Christian just war theory ever covered killing those who weren't Christians, and it never targeting one race for killing as Islam does with Jews both in the Koran and its deeds today.

[East of Eden]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

G'day East of Eden.

If you believe the doctrine that 'Jesus' IS 'God', then, as written in the bible, 'God' killed over 2 million people (plus the whole world, except a few, at one point if you believe the flood story), and so 'Jesus' is a mass murderer.

You're changing the subject from the man Jesus to the Old Testament. Anyway as murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a life, by definition that excludes God's actions. You're ignoring the horrendous sin that generation was caught up in.

[East of Eden]

See the numerous places here where Muhammad murdered those that opposed him. You won't find any such examples with Jesus Christ.

G'day East of Eden.

If you believe the doctrine that 'Jesus' IS 'God', then, as written in the bible, 'God' killed over 2 million people (plus the whole world, except a few, at one point if you believe the flood story), and so 'Jesus' is a mass murderer.

You're changing the subject from the man Jesus to the Old Testament. Anyway as murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a life, by definition that excludes God's actions. You're ignoring the horrendous sin that generation was caught up in.

If you have the power to create life, you have the power to take life.

[East of Eden]

I believe that it was perpetrated by those that control the 'war industry'.

If they were that powerful, why didn't they prevent Obama becoming president or get rid of him, since the GOP is generally more favorable to the military?

@ your 3rd response - In Australia, John Howard won his last election on the lie that granting equality to same-sex-oriented citizens would undermine the state – a lie promulgated [in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence] by the powerful christian lobby. According to Cardinal Pell and his Anglican and fundamentalist bedfellows, so great was this threat to national security that it took precedence over terrorism, the economy and all else, requiring a special session of parliament be convened to change the constitution to ensure that same-sex-oriented people can never have equality in Australia, and their oppression will continue – along with the hate crimes, murders, bashings, and suicides that are always the result of State-sponsored oppression.

John Howard is a great man. Apparently the majority of Australians are also guilty of this 'oppression'.

The U.S.A. is another example of an oppressive christian government.

Because Bush or Obama are Christians doesn't mean the US has a Christian government.

G.W. Bush declared himself a christian and sanctioned torture of people without trial at Guantanamo Bay.

There was no torture, it was humiliation. Torture is pulling someone's fingernails out. I wouldn't care if Bush had executed all those vermin in Guantanamo, after they ceased to be useful. FDR did the same thing when he caught German sabatuers here out of uniform in WWII. They got their due process (execution) quickly.

He introduced the Homeland Security Act and USA Patriot Act, which contravened the constitution.

No they didn't.

All of these are oppressive acts of fascism.

The occupation of Iraq is an expansionist policy.

We will be out of Iraq soon. I'm glad the murderer of 600,000 Iraqis isn't in power anymore. The example of a free Iraq seem to be spilling over to Iran.

@ your 4th response - Are you saying that 'Jesus' was alive after AD70 ?

Being God, yes. He is alive today.

@ your 5th response - Lieutenant General A.A. Vandergrift former Commandant of the Untied States Marine Corps said the following: It is literally true-there are no atheists in foxholes-religion is precious under fire."

So former US military officers are not allowed to be in ministries? Huh?

The foxhole is wherever one has taken a position against an enemy. It is both a defensive and offensive position which means that those who are on the front lines of battle as well as those who pray from home both occupy the foxhole.

At Force Ministries we are committed to the support and the enrichment of those who have taken up these positions. To the soldier, airmen, marine, sailor, coast guardsmen, police officer, or federal law enforcement personnel our commitment is to encourage Faith and Support Christ centered duty.

http://www.forceministries.com/

Divine Force Ministries is an Apostolic Evangelistic Ministry. Our mission is to take the Gospel of Salvation, with an end-times prophetic message, to every corner of the world! We follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to work as God directs under the promised end-times outpouring.

The final days of this world are upon us and we are in the midst of a great Spiritual War. We believe the last thing God wants His people to be focused on is prosperity! It is God's will for His people to prosper, but it is more important for them to experience the gift of Salvation and gifts of the Holy Spirit. We believe the time is now that the message of Matthew 28:19 must be completely fulfilled: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." We must go into all the world and preach the gospel and see people baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit!

We as believers can reduce the number of casualties that are lost in these final battles, but only if we are willing to fight for every single soul! God's Word states in Matthew 11:12 (NIV) "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it!" It is time for some forceful saints to rise up and go to war!

http://divineforceministries.com/templa ... p?id=44125

Thank you for bringing this ministry to my attention. I've added the website to my favorites and will probably be sending them a donation. Another example of 'Christian oppression' that isn't, I suppose.

Your assumption of "cluelessness" is noted. Verbal abuse is most often used in a debate when the individual has no rebuttal.

Or it could be a statement of fact.

I also note your prompting of using a capital 'C' when spelling christianity. I understand that it is "normal", but I do not use it because I find nothing worthwhile to denote the use of a capital 'C' in conjunction with the word christianity.

Do you also not capitalize Islam, or is your hate reserved for Christianity?

It is ironic that you label others as repressive religious fascists because they follow beliefs set out in their religious texts, but have no problem with chritians doing the same from their religious texts, even citing your religious text as reason for oppressive fascist acts .

Still waiting for you to come up with an example of a repressive Christian fascist act.

@ your 6th response - the identities of those apparent hijackers have been shown to be falsified. At least 9 of them are still alive. The 'evidence' supporting these fallacious accusations included a passport that survived the plane crash, the subsequent explosion and demolition of one of the world trade centre towers.

So where are these 9 still alive?

Osama Bin Laden was recruited by the CIA. He was part of U.S.A.'s state sponsored terrorism in other countries .....

So the effort to free Afganistan from the Soviets was state sponsored terrorism?

Prime suspect in the New York and Washington terrorists attacks, branded by the FBI as an "international terrorist" for his role in the African US embassy bombings, Saudi born Osama bin Laden was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders". 1

In 1979 "the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA" was launched in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the pro-Communist government of Babrak Kamal.2:

With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan's ISI [Inter Services Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad.3

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166,...[which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the mujahideen, and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in arms supplies -- a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987, ... as well as a "ceaseless stream" of CIA and Pentagon specialists who traveled to the secret headquarters of Pakistan's ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. There the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels.4

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) using Pakistan's military Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam:

Predominant themes were that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, that holy Islam was being violated by the atheistic Soviet troops, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.5

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html

A small amount of independent research would have provided you with the means to recognise the propaganda promulgated by the government and main stream media to justify a war that was sanctioned by the United Nations as illegal.

Further to this, you could also find out that the U.S.A. has been using depleted uranium internationally in contravention of international law.



I suggest the following documentary for further understanding ...

Beyond Treason
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0240371882

Beyond Treason focuses into the aftermath of first Gulf war and the fact that American soldiers have been suffering 15 years of post-traumatic stress disorder. Because this explanation doesn't cover all the symptoms that soldiers have had, U.S. Department of Defense's says it's a "mystery disease". The main theme of Beyond Treason is to show what really happened in the Middle-East in early 90's and how the soldiers were exposed to depleted uranium. And like if that hadn't been enough, the same soldiers got untested vaccines. Beyond Treason is a patriotic and critical documentary, that doesn't play guessing games but hits the viewer with cold, hard facts.

Few veterans and experts of Gulf War talk in front of the camera about some serious issues, and tell their views and experiences about the war and origins of the disease - and also the neglects of U.S. Army towards their own people. Doug Rokke, ex-physicist and Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project gets the main share of interview time and with a good reason. He has unquestionable amount information to tell and convinces the viewer with his self-presentation.

Although the stories of soldiers that got sick during the war, are very compelling to listen to - the film shows also horrifying images of deformed babies to stress the seriousness of the facts. Is that social pornography? Some might say it is, but my own opinion it is the real option to mainstream media, showing the true and dark side of the war. It is always tough to see mutilated bodies, but some of these people were even alive when the pictures were taken.

Besides the theme of Beyond Treason, it tells also the background of dark history of U.S. governments human experiences. Secret documents of this fact has been exposed to public lately. Projects like MKultra and Whitecoat get covered in Beyond Treason - and remember, they are not conspiracy theories but real stuff. Lewis and Riley (spokesperson of American Gulf War Veterans Association) have collected an enormous amount of evidence. Although there are not many people interviewed, there is no use to complain: with DVD, there is also CD-ROM full of real evidence: scanned documents and text that have been the base of this films revealings! A great idea, that gives Beyond Treason even more credibility.[/b][/color]

[/quote]OK, I get it. You live in a world of kooks, and you really hate the USA. Funny the rest of the world is breaking their necks to get here.