Separation of Church and State

[otseng]

The First Amendment in the US Bill of Rights says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

This has been interpreted to mean that there should be a wall of separation between the Church and the State.

What does "separation of church and state" mean? What does the first amendment mean? How does the first amendment carry over to mean that there should be a wall of separation between church and state?

Any other thoughts on this huge topic are also welcome.

[Nyril]

Any Christian teachers out there, i strongly respect those who reveal their faith in school anyways.

What if the teacher was from an unpopular religion? If the teacher worshiped Satan, would you want your child taught by that person?

[LyricalReckoner]

Thought you might enjoy this essay about the Supreme Court, the Ten Commandments, the First and Fourteenth Amendments, how things used to be, and how so many of us wish to return to a fabled past.

Here's the link:

http://www.misterthorne.org/ESSAYS/an_exodus_past.htm


Enjoy!

[Cephus]

No, I wouldn't say Christianity was the exclusive faith, but it certainly was the predominant faith. Other faiths were held by the founding fathers too. But, the point is that faith and government were not exclusive of each other during the founding of the US.

That just isn't true. Most of the founding fathers were deists who distrusted the Church of England and Christianity in general. If you read their writings, you see they were very critical of the Church and of Christian belief.

John Adams:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin:
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

Thomas Jefferson:
"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 10:78

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

James Madison:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

Thomas Paine:
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

And of course, George Washington:
"As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Messelmen, --and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever interupt the harmony existing betweenthe two countries"--Treaty of Tripoli in 1797, Article XI, written by Joel Barlow (USA diplomat) and Hassan Bashaw (of Algers), late during George Washington's second term and later ratified by President John Adams. Original and copies preserved in the national Archives in Washington, DC. under Treaty series no.358. Official Senate treaty found in the American State Papers, Foreign Relations, II p. 18-19. "Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America" vol.2, edited by Hunter Miller, US. Government printing office, 1931, p.349-385.

Seems pretty clearcut that the founding fathers neither intended the US to be a Christian nation, nor thought much of Christianity.

[micatala]

Thanks for the quotes, Cephus. Very interesting indeed.

It is unfortunate, imv, that in many conservative Christian circles, there is what I would call an attempt to revise our early history to conform to the political expediencies of the day. It is not unlike the revisionism that is applied to science and scientific history to further creationism. The tactics are often the same.

Ignore all evidence that is contrary to the view you want to push.
Selectively pick your evidence and amplify it to support your view.
Make your opponents out to be un-Godly.

Now, I am not a proponent of abolishing God from public discourse. The problem is that many portray any restriction on Government endorsement of religion as an attack or even prohibition on that religion. It is not.

[Cephus]

Thanks for the quotes, Cephus. Very interesting indeed.

Those are hardly the only ones. Most of the founding fathers just didn't like Christianity.

It is unfortunate, imv, that in many conservative Christian circles, there is what I would call an attempt to revise our early history to conform to the political expediencies of the day. It is not unlike the revisionism that is applied to science and scientific history to further creationism. The tactics are often the same.

It's all the same, usually from the same group. They want THEIR beliefs forced on everyone else as fact so we can return to the 'good old days'. Unfortunately for them, the 'good old days' never existed, it's all a fantasy world that they wish existed so they'd be in charge.

Now, I am not a proponent of abolishing God from public discourse. The problem is that many portray any restriction on Government endorsement of religion as an attack or even prohibition on that religion. It is not.

There's a difference between public discourse and making God public policy. They don't want to talk about God, they want God to run the show.

Of course, if anyone suggested that someone else's god might also want the job, they'd have an embolism.

[ShieldAxe]

american government has thrown this topic all out of whack and has taken it way too far. the origin of 'seperation of church and state' was back in england when the catholic church was also the "government" and the pope had almost all of the control in England. for some reason, the people didn't like the pope making the rules, so they called for seperation of church and state. all it was supposed to be was that the government would make the laws and handle foreign affairs and all that good stuff, so that the church was free to focus on improving the worship of God. it was in no way intended to reach the ridiculousness that it has reached now. "o the government cant sponsor church"

The Father of the Constitution James Madison would disagree with you.

February 28, 1811

To the House of Representatives of the United States:

Having examined and considered the bill entitled "An act for the relief of Richard Tervin, William Coleman, Edwin Lewis, Samuel Mims, Joseph Wilson, and the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, in the Mississippi Territory," I now return the same to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the following objection:

Because the bill in reserving a certain parcel of land of the United States for the use of said Baptist Church comprises a principle and precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."

[AlAyeti]

Cephus,

Thanks.

I keep teaching Christians that the horrible atrocities of American history should be laid at the feet of the guilty.

The Secularists that built our beliefs and political materialistic system.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

There would still be great Indian nations and a lot less suffering of the poor forced to build our great nation while being grinded under the heels of "progress" if all of those great American founding fathers wouldn't have hated Christianity and editied so much out of the Gospels.

I agree 100% that America was not founded on "Christianity."

Quote me. I quoted you.

Now I know where the term "Speaking with a forked toungue" comes from. The context is easy to see now.

[Cephus]

Now I know where the term "Speaking with a forked toungue" comes from. The context is easy to see now.

Feel free to move if you don't like it.

[AlAyeti]

Secularism doesn't offend me all that much. My people were not grinded to death by it.

Now, it is more like watching slapstick comedy every day.

"Sexually transmitted diseases are at an all-time high. Children don't seem to have any respect for authority any longer."

Duh.

Secular fruits.

Our nation was birthed by godless traitors. Did we think it would proceed through history gloriously? We're fading faster than the memory of a high school kids last lay.

[Cephus]

Secularism doesn't offend me all that much. My people were not grinded to death by it.

As opposed to all the people murdered by your wonderful religion over the years, right?

Our nation was birthed by godless traitors. Did we think it would proceed through history gloriously? We're fading faster than the memory of a high school kids last lay.

Well this nation of godless traitors happens to run the planet in just about every category. That fact must really get your panties in a bunch, doesn't it?