What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[Clownboat]

Would it be a crime to call your daughter in grade school a fat pig every day by her school mates (all under 18 years old), and call her names, make fat noises, or puffy cheeks every time they see her?

I can't imagine what would happen if we made being mean a crime, so no. Don't get me wrong though, such undesired behavior should be punished, not ignored.
(In your scenario, it sounds like my daughter has an unhealthy weight problem. A bit of people being mean might be what causes her to improve herself though. I'm not arguing to be mean, just acknowledging that some shaming may be what causes a smoker to stop smoking, or a person that eats unhealthy to eat healthier)

I would have been physically spanked in the school I attended if I were to have displayed such vile behavior (I'm not arguing for spanking by the way, just noting something effective my school did in place of the doing nothing your scenario above suggests). 'Doing nothing' to people that go against societal norms is the opposite of my actual position. I have been very clear about this.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.

Thanks for your question!

This question still remains unanswered: "I have asked specifically as to what should become criminal that isn't already."
Until this is answered, it seems to me that we already punish for the specific crimes that were presented as bullying originally. So I have been left wondering, what is the complaint? I have not received answers, but I have received comments that were mean. Ironic, no?

[alexxcJRO]

So when I asked you this question: "I'm sitting here seeing that you already have what you seem to want (that we already punish for crimes). What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"
Rather then address that you have what you want already, or clarify what it is you really want, you gave me a story about a Big Mac. This failed to show any errors of my ways and certainly didn't address what was asked of you and you have the gall to ask me to be honest. Trying to slay me with irony perhaps?

This is not quantum mechaniscs.
You were accusing me of equating bulling with physical assault and stealing.
I used the analogy with Big Mac to show I was not.
Your only path forward would be to show the analogy is wrong not deflect with things that are irrelevant to this point of discussion.

That we have laws for torture does not mean we can have laws for bullying. This seems to be your best argument, but it fails. Especially when your bullying examples are already the crimes of assault, theft or cyber bullying.
You already have what you want it seems. "Let's have laws against bullying" sure sounds nice (virtue signaling), until we try to get into the specifics as we have seen here.
Why are you not ok with punishing for the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying for example? What more specifically do you want to become criminal?
Cyberbullying is already a crime. Like I have been arguing from the start, you already have what you want, you just want to call it bullying so you can sound virtuous.
I wish I could get you to understand that theft and assault are already crimes. It really appears that you just want to call it bullying so you can sound virtuous.

1.
Q: WTF is going on?
There is no laws for bulling in my country. I am against bulling and for laws for bulling cyber or the other way.
Dude you were against bulling.
Q: Where did you argue bullying(online) is already a crime? Did I stumble in a alternative reality?
You spend all this time saying we can't have laws for bulling. That is not a crime.


2.
You stupid logic: "we can't have laws for bulling for we have laws for assault".
It follows conform your logic: "we can't have laws for torture for we have laws for assault".
Reality: Torture includes assault yet we have laws for torture.


3.
Stop making claims you cannot prove: "so you can sound virtuous".
I could give a rats ass about being perceived as virtuous or in some good way.

Like I said, what if I complained enough to the moderators (or teachers, or HR) and was able to convince them that I can't handle your ridicule? If I can do this, you would then be guilty and you would have had no idea beforehand, which is the problem. Not that you cannot supply a definition.
Far too complicated of a thing to prove. For example, how would I go about showing the moderators my 'power level' compared to yours?

Dude you were having fun: emoticons showing that. That betrays the opposite of being hurt or frightened.
You have ridicule yourself. The ridicule has been both sided.
There is no bulling present conform the concepts presented.

What is the mechanism that allows us to know beforehand as to whether we will be committing the crime of bullying if we ridicule and make fun of another person?
Agreed. What is the mechanism that allows us to know beforehand as to whether we will be committing the crime of bullying if we ridicule and make fun of another person?

Everybody knows this is evil: making fun of a person which is in a less favorable position: retard, small, poor, fat and so on for weeks, months and years while your in a favorable position.

Intrinsic morality present.
Laws are not existent because people don't know if certain thing is evil.
Laws are and should be present because people-they can't help but behave in a evil matter. Order needs to be enforced in order to have a functioning society.
Let me repeat again for those with bad debate form: Intrinsic morality derived from Affective Empathy. Mechanism fine tuned by Evolution in social species over million of years.
Let's hope I don't have to explain this again.

What is the mechanism that allows us to know beforehand as to whether we will be committing the crime of bullying if we ridicule and make fun of another person?

Mirror: What is the mechanism that allows us to know beforehand as to whether we will be committing the crime of torture if we ridicule and make fun of another person?

Q: Are you against laws for torture and sexual harassment?

[otseng]

Q: WTF is going on?
You stupid logic: "we can't have laws for bulling for we have laws for assault".
I could give a rats ass about being perceived as virtuous or in some good way.
You have ridicule yourself. The ridicule has been both sided.

Moderator Warning



Profanity, uncivil comments, and personal attacks are not allowed on the forum.

Please review our Rules.



______________



Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[boatsnguitars]

Would it be a crime to call your daughter in grade school a fat pig every day by her school mates (all under 18 years old), and call her names, make fat noises, or puffy cheeks every time they see her?

I can't imagine what would happen if we made being mean a crime, so no. Don't get me wrong though, such undesired behavior should be punished, not ignored.
(In your scenario, it sounds like my daughter has an unhealthy weight problem. A bit of people being mean might be what causes her to improve herself though. I'm not arguing to be mean, just acknowledging that some shaming may be what causes a smoker to stop smoking, or a person that eats unhealthy to eat healthier)

I would have been physically spanked in the school I attended if I were to have displayed such vile behavior (I'm not arguing for spanking by the way, just noting something effective my school did in place of the doing nothing your scenario above suggests). 'Doing nothing' to people that go against societal norms is the opposite of my actual position. I have been very clear about this.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.

Thanks for your question!

This question still remains unanswered: "I have asked specifically as to what should become criminal that isn't already."
Until this is answered, it seems to me that we already punish for the specific crimes that were presented as bullying originally. So I have been left wondering, what is the complaint? I have not received answers, but I have received comments that were mean. Ironic, no?

OK, if not overweight, but considered ugly? Or dumb? Or red-haired, or albino, etc.

But why would they spank you? If it's not a crime or enforceable? And, corporeal punishment isn't allowed in some States.

Plus, we end it here:
"I have asked specifically as to what should become criminal that isn't already."

Laws change, wouldn't you agree? I've mentioned a scenario that I think is untenable, and immoral in terms of a relentless bullying of a child by her peers or teachers - for many reasons.
I'm sure we could think of a few more ideas that would make sense, no?

[Clownboat]

This is not quantum mechaniscs.
You were accusing me of equating bulling with physical assault and stealing.

From the paragraph you quoted. Copy/paste: "I'm sitting here seeing that you already have what you seem to want (that we already punish for crimes)."

I used the analogy with Big Mac to show I was not.
Your only path forward would be to show the analogy is wrong not deflect with things that are irrelevant to this point of discussion.

I know, I was embarrassed for you as a Big Mac doesn't explain what it is that you want.
I asked you this question: "What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"
You could have just said: "no, I cannot articulate what it is that I want and avoided the sandwich talk", but here we are.

There is no laws for bulling in my country.

Again, you make my point without even knowing it.
"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"
The fact that you cannot articulate what you want is the exact mechanism that prevents laws against generic bullying.

Your argument has become: "I want something, but I'm not able to articulate what it is that I want".
I find it very difficult to respect such an argument. Can you help?

Q: Wher did you argue bullying(online) is already a crime? Did I stumble in a alternative reality?

No, but I'm guessing you are getting emotional and not fully reading my replies.
Post 255: Point to an actual crime like cyber bullying, assault or theft and you have my support.
Post 257: Why are you not ok with punishing for the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying for example?
Post 257: Since assault, theft and cyber bullying are already crimes.
Post 259: I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.
This should suffice.

You spend all this time saying we can't have laws for bulling.

To be clear, we already punish for the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying. "What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"

You stupid logic: "we can't have laws for bulling for we have laws for assault".
It follows conform your logic: "we can't have laws for torture for we have laws for assault".
Reality: Torture includes assault yet we have laws for torture.

"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"

I could give a rats ass about being perceived as virtuous or in some good way.

Um, ok... give a rats ass.
"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"

Everybody knows this is evil: making fun of a person which is in a less favorable position: retard, small, poor, fat and so on for weeks, months and years while your in a favorable position.

Oh my god! Did you just articulate for us as to what it is that you want? You want making fun of certain people to be a crime? Is that it?

Laws are not existent because people don't know if certain thing is evil.

Um. Ok.

Laws are and should be present because people-they can't help but behave in a evil matter. Order needs to be enforced in order to have a functioning society.

Um. Ok.

Let me repeat again for those with bad debate form: Intrinsic morality derived from Affective Empathy. Mechanism fine tuned by Evolution in social species over million of years.
Let's hope I don't have to explain this again.

Speaking of bad debate form... What does this have to do with answer to the question: "What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?" Please read your claim and then note that there is nothing for me to respond to nor does it address what it is that you want to become a crime. You simply made two statements. If we are being honest, that is bad debate form.

Mirror: What is the mechanism that allows us to know beforehand as to whether we will be committing the crime of torture if we ridicule and make fun of another person?

I reject this claim that to ridicule and make fun of a person is to torture them. Therefore, there is no mechanism to present.

Q: Are you against laws for torture and sexual harassment?

Nope, now would you be so kind as to answer one of my questions? It will help to foster this debate.
"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"

If you are not willing to articulate what it is that you want, it will continue to seem like virtue signaling. Surely that is not your motivation here, right?

[Clownboat]

OK, if not overweight, but considered ugly? Or dumb? Or red-haired, or albino, etc.

Copy/paste: "I can't imagine what would happen if we made being mean a crime, so no. Don't get me wrong though, such undesired behavior should be punished, not ignored."
However, let's say that this is happening online. Said person may be guilty of cyber bullying. Something that is a crime.
"what should become criminal that isn't already?"

But why would they spank you? If it's not a crime or enforceable? And, corporeal punishment isn't allowed in some States.

The good men were not willing to do nothing to allow this said kind of evil to triumph (I went to private school K-12). Law enforcement isn't needed (nor is spanking) to punish a child from stealing a cookie from the cookie jar nor for being mean to another human. Law enforcement is to enforce laws and if you notice, I continue to ask, "what should become criminal that isn't already?"

Laws change, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, some laws change.

I've mentioned a scenario that I think is untenable, and immoral in terms of a relentless bullying of a child by her peers or teachers - for many reasons.

It seems as though you want 'relentless bullying of a child' to be made into a crime. Did I just articulate what you want and if so, can it be defined, but differentiated from existing crimes?
If I make fun of you on the school bus, at what point would it become criminal and did I know that I would be committing a crime before we reached that point?

Thanks for your reply! I have hope that we may find some common ground if we can just get some clarification.

[alexxcJRO]

From the paragraph you quoted. Copy/paste: "I'm sitting here seeing that you already have what you seem to want (that we already punish for crimes)."
I know, I was embarrassed for you as a Big Mac doesn't explain what it is that you want.
I asked you this question: "What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"
You could have just said: "no, I cannot articulate what it is that I want and avoided the sandwich talk", but here we are.

Q: Sir did you not accused me of equating bulling with physical assault and stealing? (Yes/no question)

Again, you make my point without even knowing it.
"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"
The fact that you cannot articulate what you want is the exact mechanism that prevents laws against generic bullying.

Your argument has become: "I want something, but I'm not able to articulate what it is that I want".
I find it very difficult to respect such an argument. Can you help?
"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"
Nope, now would you be so kind as to answer one of my questions? It will help to foster this debate.
"What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"

If you are not willing to articulate what it is that you want, it will continue to seem like virtue signaling. Surely that is not your motivation here, right?

Bulling people online or at school/work is evil and malevolent. I want evil, malevolent people to be punished. Bulling needs to be punished. That is a sensible think to want.
I have already said this.
I want bulling laws to exist in my country.
The same way I want for example to be laws for same sex marriages in my country.

No, but I'm guessing you are getting emotional and not fully reading my replies.
Post 255: Point to an actual crime like cyber bullying, assault or theft and you have my support.
Post 257: Why are you not ok with punishing for the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying for example?
Post 257: Since assault, theft and cyber bullying are already crimes.
Post 259: I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.
This should suffice.
To be clear, we already punish for the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying. "What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?"

That is you last reply before this one. I meant before that.
You were arguing bulling laws should not exist, that is not a crime. I was arguing bulling is a crime, should be punished and laws should exist.
Q: What is happening?

Speaking of bad debate form... What does this have to do with answer to the question: "What is it that you want? Is it something you are able to articulate for us?" Please read your claim and then note that there is nothing for me to respond to nor does it address what it is that you want to become a crime. You simply made two statements. If we are being honest, that is bad debate form.

Dude you asked to supply the mechanism. Now that I have done that you come with that.
Q: What is happening?
You keep repeating same questions to all the talking points.
You are making me give up debating on this forum.
Such poor debate form.

I reject this claim that to ridicule and make fun of a person is to torture them. Therefore, there is no mechanism to present.

Psychological torture can involve ridicule as a means to broke a person-prisoner and a more easily obtain a confession or information by police/army/CIA.

[oldbadger]

You acknowledge cyber bullying, but not bullying?

I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.

Cyber bullying?
.......so you're finally coming round after all!

[alexxcJRO]

You acknowledge cyber bullying, but not bullying?

I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.

Cyber bullying?
.......so you're finally coming round after all!

It's more changing like the weather. Feels almost like my consciousness got into another parallel, alternative reality.

[boatsnguitars]

I honestly can't understand your confusion about this.

Before Cyberbullying became a law, what was the discussion?

It's often not just the act that is being discussed, but what must be done. For example, schools may be required to document the acts in a certain way, they may be required to elevate those things to a higher authority, etc.

Laws aren't just "don't do that!." They include how one is supposed to mange the process and reach a conclusion that is acceptable society; all parties.

For example:

State anti-bullying laws
If your child is being bullied at school, the first line of defense is your state’s anti-bullying law. All 50 states have anti-bullying laws. These laws often have the strongest protections for students. And they can help put an immediate stop to the bullying.

A typical state anti-bullying law requires a school to report, document and investigate bullying within a specific number of days. It also requires the school to take action to stop it. Many state laws list consequences for bullies. Some have a process for offering services like counseling to the victim and the bully.

https://www.understood.org/en/articles/bullying-laws

I really, really don't understand your issue with this discussion. When you say "what should become criminal that isn't already?"
I don't know - I'm not up on all the nuances of what is considered criminal across all States.
But, i think it's very clear that - like cyber bullying - there is a new recognition to the harm it causes. It used to be thought that bullying was normal, and people thought it made people grow tough skin, but that has been completely debunked: bullying damages people for life, and negatively affects the bully (they become more callous and defensive, earn less, lower education, etc.).
That is, it's bad for society - so it seems a worthy thing to strengthen laws against bullying. However, when we have Conservatives who reject scientific findings and simply regurgitate their mantra, progress is slow.