What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[alexxcJRO]

Yes all prosecutions and convictions should happen based on compelling evidence.
I don't understand what is your problem.
This all exchange has been ridiculous.

The fact that bullying can't be based on compelling evidence, because it's up to interpretation whether any given thing counts as bullying or not. That's my problem. As long as people have an idea of what they'll be punished for beforehand, and can make informed choices about their behaviour to avoid punishment, I don't have a single problem with any laws you want to make.

I already have debunked this nonsense more then once.

1.
Mirroring event:
The fact that sexual harassment can't be based on compelling evidence, because it's up to interpretation whether any given thing counts as sexual harresment or not. That's my problem. As long as people have an idea of what they'll be punished for beforehand, and can make informed choices about their behaviour to avoid punishment, I don't have a single problem with any laws you want to make.
2.
Bulling includes physical violence, psychological violence, ridicule, stealing. Behaviour of a person who being in a more powerful, favorable position hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful for their pleasure.
Surely there is plenty of evidence considering such evil behaviour usually involves repeated acts which span over weeks, months or years. Usually which happens in front of many witnesses.
We have cameras everywhere nowadays, plenty of technology tools for apprehending and proving a crime.
3.
Previously on alexxcJRO schooling:

alexxcJRO: "Deep down we know bulling(the behaviour of a person who hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful, often forcing that person to do something they do not want to do), murdering, stealing, raping it is wrong while doing it and after.
The law is there just to keep the peace and order in society because most humans are destructive, selfish, irresponsible, evil, malevolent, very prone to overindulgence. Most humans can't help themselves but behave in an evil, malevolent, selfish manner.

I don't think anyone can play dumb and say I did not knew rape, murder, stealing, physical assault, domestic violence was wrong and therefore probably there is most likely a law against it."

[Purple Knight]

Bulling includes physical violence, psychological violence, ridicule, stealing. Behaviour of a person who being in a more powerful, favorable position hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful for their pleasure.
Surely there is plenty of evidence considering such evil behaviour usually involves repeated acts which span over weeks, months or years. Usually which happens in front of many witnesses.
We have cameras everywhere nowadays, plenty of technology tools for apprehending and proving a crime.

Every bit of this is already a crime except ridicule. Do you seriously think that all instances of ridicule should be punished? Just the more powerful to the less powerful, perhaps? Or do you think that it should be up to interpretation who has power in the situation?

You can't use rape laws as evidence that laws against bullying would be good laws. Many people think rape laws go too far, for the same reason: No one can know when they'll be charged with rape.

[Clownboat]

Any kind of assault is a severe form of bullying.
Isn't that obvious to you?

It is not, now let me illustrate why...
If I were to knock you out on the street and steal your wallet, it would be inaccurate for you to accuse me of bullying you.
I'd be a felon for the crime of assault and theft though and punishment would await me assuming I'm caught.

Such a defense would be laughable in court.
Judge: Clownboat, you are being charged with assault and robbery of oldbadger.
Clownboat: Then I'm innocent! I was just bullying him when I punched him and stole his wallet.

My defense would be irrational, surely you agree?

Therefore I stand by my claim that it is irrational to call assault (which is a crime) and theft (which is a crime), 'bullying'. Feel free to change my mind, but I warn you, you will need to do better than "Isn't that obvious to you".

[Clownboat]

Nonsense. Nobody is equating physical assault with bulling.

Holy monkeys! This is literally from the post directly above this one.
Oldbadger: "Any kind of assault is a severe form of bullying."

Only desperate debaters who don't any food for their arguments.

You call me desperate, but it was so very easy to show just how wrong your words were. No desperation was required.

I clearly said bulling involved many things among others:

I'm referring to exact things you called bullying. The things were assault and theft and you provided specific examples.
alexxcJRO Copy/paste: "Bulling in my school involved physical assault, putting people with heads in toilets, hanging them on hallways hangers, stealing things."

Statement A: Torturing of people by the CIA involved physical assault, psychological torture and so on.
Statement A does not mean: equating torturing of people with physical assault.
Torturing of people is a different concept.
A bigger concept which encapsulate many other concepts among others: physical assault.

Please clarify. If I were to shove your head into a toilet, would I be guilty of bullying, or assault? Careful now, I would hate for you to equate the two because you don't think anyone is doing that here.

Nonsensical ramblings devoid of any accuracy.

See Socrates.

Torture of prisoners or of people to obtain confessions/information involves physical assault, physical violence and/or other stuff yet we have laws for torture of prisoners or of people to obtain confessions/information.

Yup, there are laws against torture.
Do you acknowledge that we have laws against assault and theft? Do you see how referring to existing crimes as some other crime (you're using bullying specifically in place of the actual crimes) muddies the water?

Sir bulling in schools is not punished as of today in my country.

I never said it was. What I have said is that assault and theft are already crimes that we punish people for. You muddy the muddy waters when you allude to these crimes as merely someone bullying.

This includes physical assault.

What country to you live in where physical assaults are not punished?

Bottom line, we already punish people for committing crimes. If no crime is committed then that is that. You have argued to punish people for being a bully, but not just any bully, a bully that has committed assault and theft and you seem to lose your mind when I point out that we already punish for the exact specific crimes you listed. I'm left here scratching my head trying to figure out why you want something that is already in place (until you inform us what county it is that you live in that doesn't punish for the crime of physical assault).

[Clownboat]

Dear sir mirroring events or general statements about humans or personal remarks (pointing to the dishonest tactics) or personal remarks in a debate which can get heated is not bulling conform the definition.

Bulling includes physical violence, psychological violence, ridicule, stealing.

You are then guilty of ridicule. What should your punishment be now that I 'feel' ridiculed. Did you know I would feel ridiculed when you said the things you did here?

rid·i·cule
/ˈridəˌkyo͞ol/
noun
the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behavior.

(I trust this is not lost on everyone here)

[oldbadger]

Any kind of assault is a severe form of bullying.
Isn't that obvious to you?

It is not, now let me illustrate why...
If I were to knock you out on the street and steal your wallet, it would be inaccurate for you to accuse me of bullying you.
I'd be a felon for the crime of assault and theft though and punishment would await me assuming I'm caught.

Such a defense would be laughable in court.
Judge: Clownboat, you are being charged with assault and robbery of oldbadger.
Clownboat: Then I'm innocent! I was just bullying him when I punched him and stole his wallet.

My defense would be irrational, surely you agree?

Therefore I stand by my claim that it is irrational to call assault (which is a crime) and theft (which is a crime), 'bullying'. Feel free to change my mind, but I warn you, you will need to do better than "Isn't that obvious to you".

So this isn't obvious to you...... one does ones best!

Let's bring you back to bullying......
Three boys wait to confront another boy in a school corridor, they catch him, hurt him, break his glasses and tell him that if he doesn't give half his dinner money to them each day then they'll hurt him badly.
Now what would you call this ? Let's keep to one scenario at a time,band you build then one after that.....
Ok?

[alexxcJRO]

Dear sir mirroring events or general statements about humans or personal remarks (pointing to the dishonest tactics) or personal remarks in a debate which can get heated is not bulling conform the definition.

Bulling includes physical violence, psychological violence, ridicule, stealing.

You are then guilty of ridicule. What should your punishment be now that I 'feel' ridiculed. Did you know I would feel ridiculed when you said the things you did here?

rid·i·cule
/ˈridəˌkyo͞ol/
noun
the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behavior.

(I trust this is not lost on everyone here)

Dear Cthulhu. LOL.


1. Mirroring events or general statements about humans cannot be used for you pathetic try.
For in the mirroring events I was mirroring your behaviour and the general remarks do not include you.
2.
Ridicule in itself does not equal bulling. Bulling as a much bigger concept which includes smaller concepts among other "ridicule".
We can have ridicule and not have bulling. Mates ridiculing each other or two persons going back and forth in ridiculing each other.
The bulling usually as per definition involves: behaviour of a person who being in a more powerful, favorable position hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful for their pleasure. The actions are one sided. One person x get ridiculed over and over.
Personal remarks on a debate site are both sided. You have started to make the personal remarks. That's what prompted one of the mirror events.
Plus I am not in a more powerful, favorable position and I hurts or frightens someone smaller or less powerful->(you).
The condition for being a bully event is not met.

[alexxcJRO]

Holy monkeys! This is literally from the post directly above this one.
Oldbadger: "Any kind of assault is a severe form of bullying."

Sir I was talking about me.
You are debating with me.
Q: WTF? ))

I'm referring to exact things you called bullying. The things were assault and theft and you provided specific examples.
alexxcJRO Copy/paste: "Bulling in my school involved physical assault, putting people with heads in toilets, hanging them on hallways hangers, stealing things."

I was not calling bulling physical assault and theft. Stop with the straw-man.

Please clarify. If I were to shove your head into a toilet, would I be guilty of bullying, or assault? Careful now, I would hate for you to equate the two because you don't think anyone is doing that here.

Mirror event: "If I a prisoner was being beat by you(CIA agent) physically in the process of torturing you among other things like psychological torture(exposure to loud music), physical torture(exposure to cold) and so on would you be guilty of torture or physically assault ?
Careful now, I would hate for you to equate the two because you don't think anyone is doing that here. "

My answer: You would be guilty of both assaulting me and torturing me per meaning of the concepts. Both are punishable by law. QED.

Yup, there are laws against torture.
Do you acknowledge that we have laws against assault and theft? Do you see how referring to existing crimes as some other crime (you're using bullying specifically in place of the actual crimes) muddies the water?

Correct. So the fact that we have laws against assault does not stop us from having laws against torture which may include assault. So your whole argument goes down the drain.

What country to you live in where physical assaults are not punished?

Bottom line, we already punish people for committing crimes. If no crime is committed then that is that. You have argued to punish people for being a bully, but not just any bully, a bully that has committed assault and theft and you seem to lose your mind when I point out that we already punish for the exact specific crimes you listed. I'm left here scratching my head trying to figure out why you want something that is already in place (until you inform us what county it is that you live in that doesn't punish for the crime of physical assault).

Romania.
It's not assault in general.
Sir assault which happens as part of bulling in schools is not punished.
Children, teenagers have their foods stolen, are shoved with heads in toilets, hanged on hall racks and even beaten. Ridiculed and laugh at for being small and geeky or for being poor.
There have been complaints to the school and high-school principles. Usually things are ignored.
There were few attempts to make laws and are still talks of doing something but as of now there is nothing final.

https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/social/bu ... e-lei.html
https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-educatie-2 ... catiei.htm

[alexxcJRO]

You can't use rape laws as evidence that laws against bullying would be good laws. Many people think rape laws go too far, for the same reason: No one can know when they'll be charged with rape.

I talk of sexual harassment because its more analogous with the problems you outlined with some forms of bulling. Not the extreme end which are analogous with rape. Yet you and the other one keep talking about rape even if I clearly made the clear distinction.
At this point is ridiculous and extremely disingenuous. Stop it. Please.

My point is about existence.
Existence is still a smaller evil then non-existence. Nuance understanding. Enjoy!

Every bit of this is already a crime except ridicule. Do you seriously think that all instances of ridicule should be punished? Just the more powerful to the less powerful, perhaps? Or do you think that it should be up to interpretation who has power in the situation?

I said punishing bulling which includes ridicule. There is a difference.

Q: Have I not debunked this nonsense?
Q; Do I need to repeat myself again?


We can have laws for both a smaller concept and a more bigger concept which incapsulates the smaller one.

Torture includes psychological assault, physical assault, ridicule and so on.
We have laws for both torture which include ridicule, physical assault and laws for physical assault.

Therefore it follows we can have laws for both bulling which include ridicule, physical assault and laws for physical assault. QED.

[Clownboat]

Let's bring you back to bullying......
Three boys wait to confront another boy in a school corridor, they catch him, hurt him, break his glasses and tell him that if he doesn't give half his dinner money to them each day then they'll hurt him badly.
Now what would you call this?

You did not bring this back to bullying. Either way, this would be assault, battery and theft. You can call these boys bullies and I would likely agree, but that has nothing to do with the crimes that were committed that these boys are guilty of.

My turn if you please...
What might you call someone on a debate site that calls others morons, suggests that they have memory issues and that their points are devoid of logic?

Some will consider such a person to be an online bully. We could debate as to whether such a person should be considered to be an online bully, unlike in your scenario where crimes were committed and are already punishable.

To PurpleKnights point... If a person assault someone or steals their property, there should be no question that if caught, said person knows they are guilty of a crime. Bullying on a message board though, say calling someone a moron for example is to ridicule. What crime are they guilty of? Surely being mean or impolite isn't a crime, or should it be?

Let's keep to one scenario at a time,band you build then one after that.....
Ok?

I understand keeping to one scenario at a time, but you lost me after that. Sorry.