Secular schools destroy morality.

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FinalEnigma
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Secular schools destroy morality.

Post #1

Post by FinalEnigma »

easyrider wrote: Well, Zyzzx, for the last 40 years we've seen some real fine examples of your humanism as work. The schools have become war zones and morality has been flushed down the PC toilets. Congratulations on your religion free Utopian wasteland. LOL!!!
Easyrider claims that humanism destroy a countries morality through the school system. can it be shown that humanism is the cause of a decline in morality in one of the most christian countries in the world?

questions for debate:
Is there a decline in morality in america?

If so, is it a result of the school system?

If so, is the decline of the school system a result of secular humanism?

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Post #21

Post by Greatest I Am »

Secular laws seems to be ending up better than religious laws.
Perhaps this is because they are not getting their laws from 3000 year old documents and customs.

Can anyone give an example where religious laws are better than secular laws.

I cannot think of any.

How then can we say that secular laws destroy morality when they teach better laws?

Regards
DL

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Avariel
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Re: Secular schools destroy morality.

Post #22

Post by Avariel »

4gold wrote:
I consider America's turning point in morality to be the turbulent 60s. Obviously, you can show morality to be increasing or decreasing just by changing the beginning dates.

Divorce and crime (violent crime has nearly tripled) have all been on the rise since that turbulent decade.
Ironic on the Divorce thing; women's rights and the feminist movement took off at that point, so the rise in divorces may be a simple matter of women having the option to leave abusive and/or harmful relationships (and men too.) It's more a matter of divorce or choosing to end a relationship losing the social stigma it once had. It doesn't show a decline in morality; it shows that people are able to make more choices, which is better, imo.

As for crime; well, more things are illegal, aren't they? That doesn't necessarily, again, show that immorality is on the rise, it simply shows the government is attempting to exert more control over it's people.

As for the 60's being a turbulent time, it was one, and I'm going to quote to you how turbulent it was by a friend of mine who lived through it.

"Again my experience - this 'movement' was co-current with the civil rights movement in US, which developed into the peace movement as US became involved in Viet Nam. In the civil rights movement we questioned laws, we questioned some stances of the church, we questioned how things had always been - all from a sense of justice and belief in the equality of all people. By the 70s, with the emphasis on Viet Nam, there was a change in many - the joyousness and perhaps naive sense of freshness and freedom had degraded into sex and drugs in the popular mind, and a withdrawal from society in frustration by many so called 'hippies' because it was so difficult to bring about changes.

I'll give you an example of how rigid the early 60s still were - I was sitting with a friend on her porch when her son appeared on the front sidewalk - with orange hair!!!! she called him in and made him go inside - she was horribly embarrassed! He hadn't done anything illegal - just made an attempt to define himself by his hair. (yes, of course, he did it partly to shock - and succeeded). Hair grows out. When people adjusted to hair, it became piercing - first just ears, then noses, then other areas. By the time it was fairly widespread we were in the early 70s.

If you didn't live in the late 50s/early 60s, you really can't have any idea of what it was like! One very cold snowy winter our hostess for a dinner party called all of us and said it would be OK if the women chose to wear pants! In the 60s some restaurants didn't allow women in pants to come in - I saw one woman simply take off her pants and walk in with a long tunic as a mini dress! Illogical, unnecessary rules that most accepted without thought. Believe me, in those days, wearing pants was activist and courageous! I was nearly assaulted for wearing them when someone confronted me in a store and told me I was an "affront" to God! "

-Donata

Just to give you an idea of how our country is breaking down, morally ;) Someday even certain men might be able to wear skirts in public without drawing the wrath of those around them! ;)
Oh hear the voice of the Bard/ Who present, past, and future sees/ Whose ears have heard the holy Word/ That walked among the ancient trees/

“What can you ever really know of other peoples souls - of their temptations, their opportunities, their struggles? One soul in the whole creation you do know: and it is the only one whose fate is placed in your hands.� - C.S. Lewis

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Post #23

Post by Jaysin »

Morality is objective.

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Post #24

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Jaysin wrote:Morality is objective.
Can you provide evidence of this statement?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #25

Post by Jaysin »

goat wrote:
Jaysin wrote:Morality is objective.
Can you provide evidence of this statement?
Is this a serious question?

Instead of providing evidence, I ask you to use logic.

Morals are objective depending on the society and place in time you find yourself. The objective morals of a person in say, Ancient Greece are much different than those of a person in modern civilized culture.

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Post #26

Post by Goat »

Jaysin wrote:
goat wrote:
Jaysin wrote:Morality is objective.
Can you provide evidence of this statement?
Is this a serious question?

Instead of providing evidence, I ask you to use logic.

Morals are objective depending on the society and place in time you find yourself. The objective morals of a person in say, Ancient Greece are much different than those of a person in modern civilized culture.
That makes it 'subjective' not objective.

Since it changes with circumstances, it is not objective.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Jaysin
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Post #27

Post by Jaysin »

goat wrote:
Jaysin wrote:
goat wrote:
Jaysin wrote:Morality is objective.
Can you provide evidence of this statement?
Is this a serious question?

Instead of providing evidence, I ask you to use logic.

Morals are objective depending on the society and place in time you find yourself. The objective morals of a person in say, Ancient Greece are much different than those of a person in modern civilized culture.
That makes it 'subjective' not objective.

Since it changes with circumstances, it is not objective.

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Re: Secular schools destroy morality.

Post #28

Post by East of Eden »

McCulloch wrote:
4gold wrote: An increase in divorce is not necessarily a decline in morality, unless you presuppose that divorce is always immoral.
There are tremendous negative societal consequences to divorce, including crime that you ask about below. 80% of prison inmates were raised in single parent homes. See http://www.dadsnow.org/studies/heritage1.htm

It's almost like God knew what He was talking about warning against it.
Those statistics do indicate that in the USA there has been an increase in the rate of violent crime from the 1960's to the late 1990's. Can anyone validate the claim that secularism is a causative factor?
It would make sense there would be more crime if more people think there are not eternal moral God-given standards and no afterlife with rewards and punishment.

The fact we have 4,000 abortions a day make us a far less moral nation.

The public schools are the madrasses of the secular left.
Last edited by East of Eden on Sat May 09, 2009 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Secular schools destroy morality.

Post #29

Post by East of Eden »

McCulloch wrote:One hundred and fifty years ago, many Americans justified slavery on moral grounds.
Not many. See http://www.christianfaithandreason.com/ ... bible.html

Note that "Almost all the "Bible supports slavery" arguments also placed special emphasis of the separation of the religious from the political realm." Exactly what secularists want today.

Also interesting the Episcopal church was probably the most slavery-friendly church, disregarding Biblical principles such as the Golden Rule which the Evangelical abolitionists didn't overlook. The Episcopal church continues in the same tradition today, disregarding what the Bible says about homosexual activity in favor of what is culturally popular.

Thomas Jefferson Randolph, speaking in the VA legislature in 1832 in support of abolition: "The gentleman has appealed to the Christian religion in justification of slavery. I ask him upon what part of those pure doctrines does he rely; to which of those sublime precepts does he advert to sustain his position? Is that which teaches charity, justice, and good will to all, or is it that which teaches "that ye do unto others as ye would they do unto you.""

Robert E. Lee speaking on the conflict between slavery and Christianity: "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race.

While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.

Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist!

While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day."

Beto

Re: Secular schools destroy morality.

Post #30

Post by Beto »

East of Eden wrote:There are tremendous negative societal consequences to divorce, including crime that you ask about below. 80% of prison inmates were raised in single parent homes. See http://www.dadsnow.org/studies/heritage1.htm

It's almost like God knew what He was talking about warning against it.
The only problem with divorce is when it is delayed because of religious dogma, forcing miserable people to live together, which invariably end up taking it out on their children, instead of having a clean breakup, with reasonable agreements between sane people that don't hate each other and the whole world yet.
East of Eden wrote:It would make sense there would be more crime if more people think there are not eternal moral God-given standards and no afterlife with rewards and punishment.
Do you even know the percentage of believers of "moral God-given standards" behind bars? Believing in Hell has never been a reason for not committing a crime, and it will never be.

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