The Demands of Occupy Wall Street

[WinePusher]

People at occupy wall street have released unofficial lists of demands here and there. There are apparently many out there and they don't seem to correspond to eachtother, but here's one unofficial list of demands:

-Demand 1: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending “Freetrade� by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
-Demand 2: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
-Demand 3: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
-Demand 4: Free college education.
-Demand 5: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
-Demand 6: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
-Demand 7: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.
-Demand 8: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
-Demand 9: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
-Demand 10: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
-Demand 11: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the “Books.� World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the “Books.� And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
-Demand 12: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
-Demand 13: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

http://toddkinsey.com/blog/2011/10/08/o ... f-demands/

1) What do you make of these demands? Are they reasonable or unreasonable?
2) In a list of demands seperate from this list, OWS protestors have expressed disapproval towards the ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commision. Do you agree or disagree with the ruling?
3) Although absent from the list of demands, OWS have expressed disdainment towards what they percieve to be a growing gap between the top 1% of society and the remaining 99% of society. What is the truth regarding wealth and income inequality?

[JohnPaul]

From Post 136:

We need more Operation Wetback?

I'm not for illegal immigrants and I'm for securing our borders, but danged if even I don't find the naming of such to be insulting beyond all good sense.

Is this now the "Land of the Free, and the home of the 'those of European ancestry who may or may not be some specific color other'n black or brown or red or yellow'"?

Ah, the R-Word has raised its ugly head!

That means all further debate must be silenced and we must accept whatever the liberals want to dump on us!

Or "we" present an argument that refutes the notion, instead of reiterating what's goin' on.

I'm waiting breathlessly to hear the argument!

[East of Eden]

Ignorance is not an excuse. Pretend not to understand as you wish. Need further explanation? No problem. It is very simple - the stuff you buy from your grocers on a weekly basis funds illegal immigration.

Do not believe me - again, no problem, research it for yourself. Whether you choose to understand, or continue to feign ignorance, your words condemning illegal immigration are meaningless when you are as responsible as the rest of us for them being here.

Or who did you think processes the meat you eat? Who did you think picks your fruits and vegetables? Don't know? Then find out for your self.

What a ridiculous argument. It isn't that I don't understand, it is that I reject the bizarre argument that it is somehow my fault that we are being invaded. It is the responsibility of the federal government to enforce immigration laws. In your long diatribe blaming me for the problem you do not mention once who is really at fault, Obama & Co. in DC. Very strange.

Fairly simple, dismantle the current labor laws to get our labor back on competitive footing with the rest of the world. Discontinue providing economic and social benefits to those who are here illegally. I have no issue with enforcing illegal immigration - but as Americans we should not be relying on others to do the checking for us. Nor should we be placing American farmers in the position where they have to use immigrant labor, or face the probability that they will go under. We fix this by supporting them at the market, and verifying for ourselves where our produce comes from.

All well and good, but it could be eons before your list is accomplished. In the meantime we need to secure the border. Israel does it, why can't we? We have a very effective border fence in San Diego, it needs to be extended, and we need to get serious about deporting illegals now here.

If we erase the demand, the supply will subside as well. Buy locally, verify the labor, and support American made products. It is hypocritical to look down your noses at illegal immigration, while paying their wages by buying their products.

Nonsense. Does your store have tags on the food telling you what was picked by illegals?

My family has already reduced our purchase of non-verified products by 40%. Our freezer is stocked with fresh produce from local farmers and land owners we have taken the time to get to know at farmers markets.

By next year, we plan to be at more then 50% as we are starting a communal garden in our apartment complex with the support of the landlord. We are removing our financial support of illegal immigration and bringing business back to local farmers. Not to mention that all the products that my company produces are made locally in Boise - by companies that we know personally, and have toured the facility to verify for ourselves the legality of the labor. We are doing more then just talking about the issue.

All I can say is, you must have waaay more time on your hands than most people. Not a lot of farms here in the high desert, we've had about 3.5 inches of rain this year. You really think your actions are reducing the number of illegals? I bet not 1 in 10,000 have the time or inclination to do what you do, they're too busy struggling to survive in the Obama economy.

So, besides the big talk, what are you doing? What action have you taken personally on the matter? (Let me guess, it is the job of the "spineless politicians" to fix everything, and you have no responsibility to do anything yourself? Or, did you really think that a vote every two years was all you are required to do as a citizen?)

As I've said, it is the responsibility of the federal government to secure the border. My actions will consist of replacing the current administration that is failing to do so. Bush wasn't any better, BTW.

What, didn't recognize your handy work? I am just reflecting your own tendencies. Check my posts to all of the other posters... I give respect to those who give it in return. You are the recipient of snide remarks because you are the quickest to give them to others. Be respectful when dealing with people, even when you disagree, and you will find you will get the same in return.

I suspect I am the recipient of your snideness because of the holes I've poked in your arguments.

[East of Eden]

delete

[chris_brown207]

What a ridiculous argument. It isn't that I don't understand, it is that I reject the bizarre argument that it is somehow my fault that we are being invaded. It is the responsibility of the federal government to enforce immigration laws. In your long diatribe blaming me for the problem you do not mention once who is really at fault, Obama & Co. in DC. Very strange.

Foreign born workers account for 15% of all labor in the US. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/68xx/doc6853 ... ration.pdf I would hazard a guess that 65% of our produce is picked and brought to market by immigrants, the great majority of unverified legality. This is from doing my own footwork, and learning about the issue by talking to those directly involved - farmers.

33% of the nations potato supply comes from Idaho. As I stated previously, I have visited many local farms, and I drive by them as well as a cheese factory, a meat processing plant, and a sugar beet factory on a weekly basis. Guess who the majority of the laborers are? They certainly are not Idaho Natives.

I have also visited Florida and Kentucky in my travels this year, states which are also involved in farming. I see the same anecdotal evidence in these states that I have seen in Idaho.

So, the issues is not as simple as just enforcing the laws. Immigrants are entrenched in our farming and produce system nationwide. We also need to have a solution for what we are going to do when those whom we have become dependent on are gone.

And some of our biggest retailers are some of the biggest recipients - how do you think large food chains are able to get their prices lower then local mom and pops despite the fact they have to ship in the produce, refrigerate it the whole time, and meet umpteen million regulations in the process.

So, by frequenting these nationwide chains, and not supporting your local farmers - you are just as guilty of supporting illegal immigration as those who hire illegals.

But then again, my recommendations require that you do a little bit of work. I wouldn't want to rob you of the opportunity to whine and complain and do nothing about an issue you can actually have an impact on now. In past posts you have complained about "do nothing leftist liberals" who only "whine and complain" about issues. But when it comes down to it, you are just as guilty.

All well and good, but it could be eons before your list is accomplished. In the meantime we need to secure the border. Israel does it, why can't we? We have a very effective border fence in San Diego, it needs to be extended, and we need to get serious about deporting illegals now here.

You mean the billion dollar wall that has been breached multiple times in the past year by million dollar efforts on the part of the cartels? http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/san-diego ... tFIpxx6RaE These tunnels need only be in service for a few days for the cartels to make their investment back, plus profit. Another excellent example of wasted tax payer dollars.

My company visited Israel this year, and they have REAL security issues. They don't have problems with cheap labor crossing their borders - they have problems with terrorism on a daily basis. We have talked to Bomb Technicians who have done 7 responses a day, where some of our Bomb Technicians in some of our cities may only do 7 in a year. Plus, their whole country is smaller then the state of Rhode Island. It is much easier to secure a contested border that spans a few miles than one that spans thousands. Our efforts and tax dollars should be spent doing something more cost effective, such as focusing on the labor issues that make our system ripe for an influx in cheap labor in the first place.

Nonsense. Does your store have tags on the food telling you what was picked by illegals?

Of course not, because retailers don't want you to know, and the average consumer such as yourself is quite happy having their "head stuck in the sand" (your words). Ignorance is bliss, as you have demonstrated. If you want to speak intelligently on the topic, do a little leg work yourself. The results are eye opening.

All I can say is, you must have waaay more time on your hands than most people. Not a lot of farms here in the high desert, we've had about 3.5 inches of rain this year. You really think your actions are reducing the number of illegals? I bet not 1 in 10,000 have the time or inclination to do what you do, they're too busy struggling to survive in the Obama economy.

Nonsense, you probably spend 6X as much time watching football games every week as we do conversing with local farmers and supporting the farmers market(assuming you catch 2 games a week). If the problem was such a big economic and security problem as you portray it to be, then I would assume you would be more then happy to take a little extra time out of your week to visit the issue. All it would require is you add an hour of your time each weekend to look up the local farmers through craigslist (look up "farm fresh" as a keyword). And I don't care where you live, there are local growers. (FYI, Idaho is considered part of the high desert as well, although we thankfully have access to very robust irrigation systems and water supplies.)

Here are the results of a 2 min search for local farm produce in Phoenix, AZ - probably one of the hottest and driest cities in the country:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/for/2715669440.html - farm fresh eggs
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/grd/2703504081.html - farm fresh apples
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/grd/2697217004.html - oranges, tangelos, and Arizona Sweets.

Sorry, once again - your excuses don't fly.

As I've said, it is the responsibility of the federal government to secure the border. My actions will consist of replacing the current administration that is failing to do so. Bush wasn't any better, BTW.

The words of a true patriot - required to do nothing but check a box once every two years. Thank you for being part of the solution. If arm chair quarterbacking were a job, I would say you have job security for life.

You really think your hands are completely clean? If you lived in a high crime neighborhood - would it not be your responsibility to report crimes that you have witnessed. And wouldn't buying stolen goods be contributing, aiding and abetting the criminals. I guess living in ignorance rids you of all accountability.

As much as you whine about do nothing liberals, the truth is you are just as big a contributor to the whine, complain, and do nothing crowd.

[East of Eden]

Foreign born workers account for 15% of all labor in the US. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/68xx/doc6853 ... ration.pdf I would hazard a guess that 65% of our produce is picked and brought to market by immigrants, the great majority of unverified legality. This is from doing my own footwork, and learning about the issue by talking to those directly involved - farmers.

So if you don't know exactly what is produced by illegals with your guesses, how is anybody else going to? You make no sense.

33% of the nations potato supply comes from Idaho. As I stated previously, I have visited many local farms, and I drive by them as well as a cheese factory, a meat processing plant, and a sugar beet factory on a weekly basis. Guess who the majority of the laborers are? They certainly are not Idaho Natives.

I have also visited Florida and Kentucky in my travels this year, states which are also involved in farming. I see the same anecdotal evidence in these states that I have seen in Idaho.

I guess you're a real hero for all the farm visiting, but what does that have to do with the feds not doing their job?

So, the issues is not as simple as just enforcing the laws.

Yes it is.

Immigrants are entrenched in our farming and produce system nationwide. We also need to have a solution for what we are going to do when those whom we have become dependent on are gone.

And some of our biggest retailers are some of the biggest recipients - how do you think large food chains are able to get their prices lower then local mom and pops despite the fact they have to ship in the produce, refrigerate it the whole time, and meet umpteen million regulations in the process.

So, by frequenting these nationwide chains, and not supporting your local farmers - you are just as guilty of supporting illegal immigration as those who hire illegals.

The fact that you can't verify all the workers on the local farms are legal makes your point moot. Or on your farm travels do you verify each worker at large and small farms?

But then again, my recommendations require that you do a little bit of work. I wouldn't want to rob you of the opportunity to whine and complain and do nothing about an issue you can actually have an impact on now. In past posts you have complained about "do nothing leftist liberals" who only "whine and complain" about issues.

Cite, or did you just make that up? I wish Obama would do a lot less than he does.

But when it comes down to it, you are just as guilty.

No, I'm not, it isn't my responsibility to secure the border.

You mean the billion dollar wall that has been breached multiple times in the past year by million dollar efforts on the part of the cartels? http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/san-diego ... tFIpxx6RaE These tunnels need only be in service for a few days for the cartels to make their investment back, plus profit. Another excellent example of wasted tax payer dollars.

So you want to do nothing until a perfect wall is built? As I've said, we should bring some of our troops home from foreign bases and let them help secure the border. I guess to you visiting farms is more important than making sure drug dealers and possible jihadists can't cross our border at will.

My company visited Israel this year, and they have REAL security issues. They don't have problems with cheap labor crossing their borders - they have problems with terrorism on a daily basis. We have talked to Bomb Technicians who have done 7 responses a day, where some of our Bomb Technicians in some of our cities may only do 7 in a year. Plus, their whole country is smaller then the state of Rhode Island. It is much easier to secure a contested border that spans a few miles than one that spans thousands. Our efforts and tax dollars should be spent doing something more cost effective, such as focusing on the labor issues that make our system ripe for an influx in cheap labor in the first place.

Fine, but in the meantime, secure the border as Israel has. The actual proves the possible.

Of course not, because retailers don't want you to know, and the average consumer such as yourself is quite happy having their "head stuck in the sand" (your words). Ignorance is bliss, as you have demonstrated. If you want to speak intelligently on the topic, do a little leg work yourself. The results are eye opening.

So with your legwork, you know which potato at your local store was picked legally? LOL

Nonsense, you probably spend 6X as much time watching football games every week as we do conversing with local farmers and supporting the farmers market(assuming you catch 2 games a week). If the problem was such a big economic and security problem as you portray it to be, then I would assume you would be more then happy to take a little extra time out of your week to visit the issue. All it would require is you add an hour of your time each weekend to look up the local farmers through craigslist (look up "farm fresh" as a keyword). And I don't care where you live, there are local growers. (FYI, Idaho is considered part of the high desert as well, although we thankfully have access to very robust irrigation systems and water supplies.)

Here are the results of a 2 min search for local farm produce in Phoenix, AZ - probably one of the hottest and driest cities in the country:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/for/2715669440.html - farm fresh eggs
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/grd/2703504081.html - farm fresh apples
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/grd/2697217004.html - oranges, tangelos, and Arizona Sweets.

Sorry, once again - your excuses don't fly.

Sorry, it's your logic that doesn't fly. As if going to farmers markets will cause illegals to go home. If only if were that simple. Wouldn't it be easier to just deport the illegals, not to mention stop paying for their education and health care? What you subsidize, you get more of, or is your head in the sand on that one?

The words of a true patriot - required to do nothing but check a box once every two years. Thank you for being part of the solution. If arm chair quarterbacking were a job, I would say you have job security for life.

You really think your hands are completely clean? If you lived in a high crime neighborhood - would it not be your responsibility to report crimes that you have witnessed. And wouldn't buying stolen goods be contributing, aiding and abetting the criminals. I guess living in ignorance rids you of all accountability.

As being here illegally is a crime, I will be happy to report such persons. Is that what you mean?

As much as you whine about do nothing liberals, the truth is you are just as big a contributor to the whine, complain, and do nothing crowd.

Your logic-free dancing continues to ignore the feds not doing their job. Can't make Obama look bad, can we?

[JohnPaul]

chris_brown207 wrote:

So, by frequenting these nationwide chains, and not supporting your local farmers - you are just as guilty of supporting illegal immigration as those who hire illegals.

Congratulations on your efforts, but I am afraid depending on individual shoppers to change anything on a large scale is futile. Most people would not be willing to make the effort, and it would be impossible for most of the American population who live in large cities where local farmers are not available. The small family farm has almost disappeared, and most food production and processing is now done by large corporate enterprises.

There is a rule of economics which could have a massive effect on the problem, but would cause many others in its place: "The power to tax is the power to destroy." If employers were massively taxed for every illegal employed, customers were taxed for every item touched by an illegal, and the illegals themselves were taxed for being here, the governments would have a gigantic financial incentive to actually enforce the laws, but it would turn the American economy on its head and most food production would vanish. The cost of food nationwide would more than double, forcing many more people onto welfare.

I am afraid that any solution that could actually do the job would destroy the American economy as we know it.

John

[chris_brown207]

Congratulations on your efforts, but I am afraid depending on individual shoppers to change anything on a large scale is futile. Most people would not be willing to make the effort, and it would be impossible for most of the American population who live in large cities where local farmers are not available. The small family farm has almost disappeared, and most food production and processing is now done by large corporate enterprises.

There is a rule of economics which could have a massive effect on the problem, but would cause many others in its place: "The power to tax is the power to destroy." If employers were massively taxed for every illegal employed, customers were taxed for every item touched by an illegal, and the illegals themselves were taxed for being here, the governments would have a gigantic financial incentive to actually enforce the laws, but it would turn the American economy on its head and most food production would vanish. The cost of food nationwide would more than double, forcing many more people onto welfare.

I am afraid that any solution that could actually do the job would destroy the American economy as we know it.

John

I hate to break it to you, but your single vote on a single issue is not a very effective tactic to create change either. Not a single politician, Republican or Democratic, has been willing to tackle this issue in any meaningful way. And why should they, the retailers lobbyist organizations are large and powerful. Wal-Mart has already spent over $5Million this year to date just on lobbying politicians - and this in a year when immigration is not the hottest topic. http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/client ... D000000367

Their Super PACs can contribute millions of dollars to a electoral candidate, while the average citizen can only contribute a maximum of $5000.

And please look at my post to East Of Eden, it took me all of two minutes to find local farmers selling their produce even in a hot and dry city like Phoenix. They are there waiting for anyone willing to make half an effort. And I am a small business owner who works 40-60 hours a week in a fairly new company, while my wife is a full time student - so it is not like we have any more time or financial resources than anyone else in this forum.

How does that saying go - "do as you have always done, get what you have always gotten". As I have heard many a conservative on here quote - Freedom is not free. You have to actually work at it.

[JohnPaul]

East of Eden wrote:

So with your legwork, you know which potato at your local store was picked legally? LOL

When I was a kid on the farm, we "dug" potatoes, not picked them.

John

[JohnPaul]

Congratulations on your efforts, but I am afraid depending on individual shoppers to change anything on a large scale is futile. Most people would not be willing to make the effort, and it would be impossible for most of the American population who live in large cities where local farmers are not available. The small family farm has almost disappeared, and most food production and processing is now done by large corporate enterprises.

There is a rule of economics which could have a massive effect on the problem, but would cause many others in its place: "The power to tax is the power to destroy." If employers were massively taxed for every illegal employed, customers were taxed for every item touched by an illegal, and the illegals themselves were taxed for being here, the governments would have a gigantic financial incentive to actually enforce the laws, but it would turn the American economy on its head and most food production would vanish. The cost of food nationwide would more than double, forcing many more people onto welfare.

I am afraid that any solution that could actually do the job would destroy the American economy as we know it.

John

I hate to break it to you, but your single vote on a single issue is not a very effective tactic to create change either. Not a single politician, Republican or Democratic, has been willing to tackle this issue in any meaningful way. And why should they, the retailers lobbyist organizations are large and powerful. Wal-Mart has already spent over $5Million this year to date just on lobbying politicians - and this in a year when immigration is not the hottest topic. http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/client ... D000000367

Their Super PACs can contribute millions of dollars to a electoral candidate, while the average citizen can only contribute a maximum of $5000.

And please look at my post to East Of Eden, it took me all of two minutes to find local farmers selling their produce even in a hot and dry city like Phoenix. They are there waiting for anyone willing to make half an effort.

How does that saying go - "do as you have always done, get what you have always gotten". As I have heard many a conservative on here quote - Freedom is not free. You have to actually work at it.

I have been following news stories from Germany about the recent arrests of a group of Neo-Nazis there. Their method of killing individual immigrants certainly attracts much more attention than my individual vote here does, but I doubt it has any more large-scale effect. Although, who knows? At least they are doing something!

It is said that "In a democracy, the people get what they deserve." What a frightening thought!

I have learned that a small part of the farm where I grew up in Michigan is now being used as a specialty farm which sells most of its produce at a local Farmer's Market. The rest of the old farm is now a big housing development. The response at the Farmer's Market has been wonderful. The demand is certainly there, but I am afraid that the operation is mostly a hobby and not a potential large-scale money-making enterprise. They hire an occasional local teen-ager to help. The demand is there, but the profit potential for such operations is very limited. As a businessman, I am sure you are familiar with the term "profit."

John

[Slopeshoulder]

chris_brown207 wrote:

So, by frequenting these nationwide chains, and not supporting your local farmers - you are just as guilty of supporting illegal immigration as those who hire illegals.

Congratulations on your efforts, but I am afraid depending on individual shoppers to change anything on a large scale is futile. Most people would not be willing to make the effort, and it would be impossible for most of the American population who live in large cities where local farmers are not available. The small family farm has almost disappeared, and most food production and processing is now done by large corporate enterprises.

John

They're coming back though.
I live or have lived in manhatten, chicago, portland, boston, berkeley, san francisco, and their crowded upscale suburbs. All have farmers markets. ALL. Cities have GREAT farmers markets, usually two days per week, in multiple locations. Better taste, better price, better ethics. And the stores carry, highlight, and identify their local products too. And the restaraunts and even cafes carry and identify the local source of ingredients on the menu. local farms are a constant fact of life, even in manhatten (ever been to union square on market day?).

And don't get me started on my failed attempt to find one syllable of truth in what east of eden has to say on this matter.

While I'm sure that a certain percentage of the food I eat is corporate farmed, illegal picked, and long distance shipped, a lot isn't, and less each month. It's easy. American ingenuity is rising to the occasion, food culture and systems are changing, and decrying the feds for everything and then asking skydaddy god or the grandpa president to fix things is a crock. YOU fix it, WE fix it, a little each day. Having said that, I might say screw it and go eat at Jack in the Box that 3 blocks away, but I usually don't. We all do our bit.
BTW, you wouldn't believe the thanksgiving dinner I had cooked for me at a beach house in Monterey: 15 dishes, all organic, all local (including the bird: it was a heritage breed) and several farms actually named by the chef. The feta was bulgarian though; the chef insisted on that so I had to go find it and bring it. And I'm not even a foodie.

Wake up folks.