How can anyone be against universal health care?

[Ooberman]

It may cost some extra money, but when was money more important than health?

[bluethread]

You do realize these laws and processes protect you as well, don't you? If you lose your job for some reason, and lose your company insurance, you won't be rejected by other insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Companies can not put caps on medications if they are expensive.

And , no, i am not part of the so called 1%.

I don't have company insurance. There are some things in the ACA that could be good. However, as the Max Baucus (D) chairman of the Senate Finance Committee said, it's a train wreck. Regarding true universal health care, ie single payer, if it is such a good idea why not make it truly universal. By the way, if your annual income is over $34,000, you are part of the global 1%. Should money be taken from you to assure that all Tutu's have the same access to a heart transplant as you?

[Goat]

You do realize these laws and processes protect you as well, don't you? If you lose your job for some reason, and lose your company insurance, you won't be rejected by other insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Companies can not put caps on medications if they are expensive.

And , no, i am not part of the so called 1%.

I don't have company insurance. There are some things in the ACA that could be good. However, as the Max Baucus (D) chairman of the Senate Finance Committee said, it's a train wreck. Regarding true universal health care, ie single payer, if it is such a good idea why not make it truly universal. By the way, if your annual income is over $34,000, you are part of the global 1%. Should money be taken from you to assure that all Tutu's have the same access to a heart transplant as you?

If and when there is a world government, then I'll worry about that. Until that time, then, your question is totally irrelevant.

[bluethread]

You do realize these laws and processes protect you as well, don't you? If you lose your job for some reason, and lose your company insurance, you won't be rejected by other insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Companies can not put caps on medications if they are expensive.

And , no, i am not part of the so called 1%.

I don't have company insurance. There are some things in the ACA that could be good. However, as the Max Baucus (D) chairman of the Senate Finance Committee said, it's a train wreck. Regarding true universal health care, ie single payer, if it is such a good idea why not make it truly universal. By the way, if your annual income is over $34,000, you are part of the global 1%. Should money be taken from you to assure that all Tutu's have the same access to a heart transplant as you?

If and when there is a world government, then I'll worry about that. Until that time, then, your question is totally irrelevant.

There is a world governing body. It's called the UN. Why shouldn't the World Health Organization be granted the power to implement universal health care. As a matter of full disclosure, I have no problem with pay go being implemented globally. Oh ya, it already is, except where governments are attempting to control the system for partisan gain.

[nayrbsnilloc]

tell me, why not?? Are you so selfish that you want to see people who can't make ends meet suffer and die for some 'principle'?

I don't want a 'classless society'... or an 'equal' society. I want people to have equal opportunity, and I don't want the ultra wealthy lord it over us. The only exceptions I have to a good , regulated capitalist system (i.e... not totally free market), is health care, and education. The infrastructure also an be much more effectively handled via government..

I would like to see a more equal distribution of wealth. Right now, with the way the tax structure is set up, the wealth is going to the very very rich, rather than be a healthy distribution.

You're extrapolating and accusing me of things I never said. No, I am not advocating for people's deaths on principle.

Yes. I wish that the distribution of wealth in America was a bit more equal, but not quite as equal as most would probably desire it to be. Mandated equality results in complacency. If there is no possibility of improvement, in this case becoming richer, there is no incentive to be productive. Yes, the wealthy do tend to get wealthier. and why shouldn't they? should they be punished for their success?

My next question for you, and your answer will lead into my response:
Do you consider health care to be a basic human right?

[Goat]

You do realize these laws and processes protect you as well, don't you? If you lose your job for some reason, and lose your company insurance, you won't be rejected by other insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Companies can not put caps on medications if they are expensive.

And , no, i am not part of the so called 1%.

I don't have company insurance. There are some things in the ACA that could be good. However, as the Max Baucus (D) chairman of the Senate Finance Committee said, it's a train wreck. Regarding true universal health care, ie single payer, if it is such a good idea why not make it truly universal. By the way, if your annual income is over $34,000, you are part of the global 1%. Should money be taken from you to assure that all Tutu's have the same access to a heart transplant as you?

If and when there is a world government, then I'll worry about that. Until that time, then, your question is totally irrelevant.

There is a world governing body. It's called the UN. Why shouldn't the World Health Organization be granted the power to implement universal health care. As a matter of full disclosure, I have no problem with pay go being implemented globally. Oh ya, it already is, except where governments are attempting to control the system for partisan gain.

The U.N. is not a government. Stop using equivocation.

If the random country that you are making up is as poor as you are saying, then, there is this little thing known as 'triage'.. you put resources where it will do the most good. It seems like , if that country is stable enough, resources could be better focused to provide greater good for a greater number of people. You know, get people so they can not starve to death, and have roofs over their heads, and basic medicines, before you go into the highly advances specialized stuff.

I wouldn't mind.. but take care of the basics first. Get the country into the position they can take care of themselves, first.

[JoeyKnothead]

I need to 'pologize to everyone for a recent post, and wondered if of y'all know a friend or confidant that'll get it took down real quite like.

Bluethread, I know I said I owed everbody a 'pology, and I hold to my word, but I'm giving you the most of it, and you can divide what you don't need out as you see fit.

I'm sorry I spilt my mania all over your rationality. And I was so eager to go into more detail, and see your analytical process at work. I am shamed to have wasted your time, or to not show the rightful respect your considerable abilities warrant.

It's the weirdest thing about how my deal works, I can't tell I'm in the mania part of it, 'til I do something so stupid that now you don't even hafta bother paint a sign on it, I can tell it just by looking.

It bothers me, immensely, to know that at any point in my fight for sanity, I might lose the respect of those whose wisdom and guidance, sober counsel and elbow nudges have been so helpful in my understanding of myself, and the world around me.

Could it be that the worst mental disease is to be able to observe one's own?



But what a rush pn the way up, when the mind races ever t'wards the future, and new ideas! No drugs either; pure ol' brain broke disease.


So I settle into the hammock, and send my mind drifting towards the ocean, where the water is warm, the sun has just started to tire. And the waves.

I swim out study the waves, titilate them with my own energy, I emit cheer and goodwill. The waves respond with positive energy, indicating playfulness. The wave tells me his thoughts, I do not read them. As we greet, there is a display of subtle green shades being mixed and mingled just beneath the surface. The wave tells me when to ride, I am not a jockey.

The surfboard is the portal I use visit the broken parts of my mind. The confused parts. The parts nobody wants anymore. A welcoming wave signals to me that it is wanting to play, and I'm on my board in an instant, eager to take the final step in this process that


Leaving the portal, I step off the surfboard, it is now a friend I will forever remember. I carefully balance each and every molecule and thought I possess into the wave. Wave reciprocates. And then it comes, like always, warm and quiet, peaceful. On and on then, I ride the waves throughout the night and into the morning. I stop only to put to matter where the mind has been. The drawings were first, and I've lost no skill in my sabatical. Then three songs, enjoyed from within the sound waves this time, a natural, integral part of the energy transformed into new creations. Three songs is at my fastest, a month's production, and here in a span of hours. I've never written a short story, nor ever felt I'd ever be in a hurry to do it. It story was the result of what can only be described as and effort to control the entire spectrum of laughter energy into a few short, sharp pages. I was laughing every time I hit the next key. Even inspired me to block out two 3d models for animation later.

I love the waves, they help me present in the physical what exists in the mental. Those kinds of rides make it all worthwhile. I wouldn't trade 'em for anything.

There it is, peak mania. Pure seeking. Pure immersion.



Please consider how the euphoric phase of mania may be confused with hubris and inflated ego. I'll have my bill collected, with interest.



Catching the final wave of the session, and riding it up to shore, I touch down on an island with no vegetation. The sand is prickly sharp under my feet. I'm starting to sense the heat of the sand now, and I ain't a friend. I look down and notice the tide has risen in just the time I've been paused here. Pretending I'm a super hero, I scan the horizon for cover and concealment, with my superhero eyes. I then turn my attention to a darkened area in my peripheral vision.

The crevice into the cave opens enough that a slight squeeze welcomes me like a lover in waiting. I'm presented with a massive cavern of dark gray rock that could only have been worked by the most skilled practioners of time. And I hear the voices. Always the voices

The voices frighten and scare me. They are loud, incessant, hostile to my existence.



It'll come in strong tonight. The voices. So loud I can do nothing but offer them my complete attention. They'll scream, and moan, and curse, and torment. They'll wail and gnash, and flail about in the three dimensional space they possess like gods. Booming, violent voices echo off the walls so much they become all new voices, and those echoes, new voices to. They tease me and try to trick me.

After the inviting smells of the cavernous entrance, I know move into air that is caustic and accusatory, its negative energy claws at my sinuses, seeking to burrow deep into my mind, like so many worms in the ground.

And so I go, crawling on my hands and knees, the path gets ever smaller, ever tighter, ever sharper against my fleshy shell. And the voices. Always the voices. Abusing me and threatening me and tormenting me and chasing me and finding me and louder, louder, louder, angrier, angrier, angrier. I happen to discover a new path through the cave, it opens up, and the voices get louder still, I stand up in a long, narrow chamber, and the voices get angrier. I start running across the cavern to the other side, and the footsteps start, and the get louder, and angrier, and the flashes start, red, purple, red, red, always red, purple, red, red. And the voices. Always the voices.

So I run, and run, and run, but the hall doesn't end. Nor do the voices. Always the voices.


And so I run and run, sweating and heaving. Now my footsteps are pounding into my brain a new torture I've not had before. But on I go, through the evil halls of my own mind, being chased by my own psychoses, relentlessly, urgently, until exhaustion finally overcomes me, becoming all the reality I can know. With my own energy now exhausted, the voices no longer have the power they need to survive, and they too fall in silent submission to their own exhaustion . And there I'll lay, so scared of my own mind that I have neither the courage to shake in fear, nor the courage to be paralyzed by it. I decay through the phase of suspended animation. Soon then my existence begins decaying into concept. And there, as I lay precariously between two worlds hostile to my very being, my mind begins rapidly to lose its ability to maintain awareness, yet somewhere, somehow, I hear a whispered whisp of a voice...

"Live."



But y'all come by anytime now, and bring the wife and kids.

[nursebenjamin]

I don't have company insurance. There are some things in the ACA that could be good. However, as the Max Baucus (D) chairman of the Senate Finance Committee said, it's a train wreck. ...

House Republicans cut the entire budget for educating people on the roll out of the health care exchanges. When Baucus used the phrase "train wreak", he was referring to the effort to educate people, not to the ACA itself.[1]

[Goat]

tell me, why not?? Are you so selfish that you want to see people who can't make ends meet suffer and die for some 'principle'?

I don't want a 'classless society'... or an 'equal' society. I want people to have equal opportunity, and I don't want the ultra wealthy lord it over us. The only exceptions I have to a good , regulated capitalist system (i.e... not totally free market), is health care, and education. The infrastructure also an be much more effectively handled via government..

I would like to see a more equal distribution of wealth. Right now, with the way the tax structure is set up, the wealth is going to the very very rich, rather than be a healthy distribution.

You're extrapolating and accusing me of things I never said. No, I am not advocating for people's deaths on principle.

Yes. I wish that the distribution of wealth in America was a bit more equal, but not quite as equal as most would probably desire it to be. Mandated equality results in complacency. If there is no possibility of improvement, in this case becoming richer, there is no incentive to be productive. Yes, the wealthy do tend to get wealthier. and why shouldn't they? should they be punished for their success?

My next question for you, and your answer will lead into my response:
Do you consider health care to be a basic human right?

I consider good health care in this country something that is needed for the health and well being of this country. If people are paid enough to live on , and they have proper health care, they don't have a certain desperation, and society as a whole can prosper. Right/non-rights do not come into consideration. What is a right anyway, but what society as a whole says is a right?

I want people to be able to earn enough, and have access to the proper services so they can earn their health care.

I view health care as part of the compensation package for 'an honest days pay for an honest day's work'.

[Ooberman]

Yet, when it comes to 'morality' and the 'act of charity' to help the poor,.. guess what.. it doesn't happen when it is not out there.

I mean, it's not a double standard for having the people who have more money pay into the pot. I mean, taking 10,000 bucks from a multimillionare won't mean a thing, but take 15 bucks from someone who is poverty, they might not be able to feed their kids. It's a matter of practicality.

The progressive taxes are put into place to attempt to get a better distrubution of wealth so there is a healthy economy. Supply side economics does not work. Having a healthier work force means you have a more productive work force.

The problem results in a contradiction of principles. On one side is the principle of fairness and equality. On the other side is the principle of freedom and the right to personal property.

People that view fairness as a greater quality advocate for the social reform and welfare. People that view freedom as a greater quality advocate for the prevention of legalized plunder. (little bastiat reference for those who care)

I personally do not think that equality is mandatory, nor do I want total equality. To clarify: I am an advocate for totally equal rights, but that is not the same. That is what freedom is - Equal Rights. Someone should have the right to retain their personal property regardless of how much they have in comparison to others.

Those are the positions on opposite sides of the principle spectrum. You may say that it is impractical and that the proper place to be would be somewhere inbetween, in the middle of the spectrum. This is where I disagree.

Pragmatism and Principles are mutually excluse concepts. In choosing a "practical" solution, you inevitably sacrifice some part of your principles and you have to choose which one is more important and which one you give up.

Frankly, I don't give a good darn about 'balance of principles. I am worried about people getting healthcare. Period. End of story. And no, pragmatism and principles are not mutually exclusive. You can COMPROMISE to achieve a solution.. and that is both principled and pragmatic. Only those who are too rigid to do anythinG BUT what they want will not compromise. That isn't principled, that is egotistical.

Good, then you pay for them. Are you aware that you are probably in the 1% with regard to the world? Are people in the third world less deserving than the rest of us? If we are going to have universal health care, why not make it truly universal. Think of how many more doctor, hospitals and medical services there will be if the UN ran the health care system for the world!

Ah. I see. It's the old 'I don't want to pay for someone else' syndrome that gets promoted by the right wing of this country. I am worried about the country I am in... in specifically American citizens.

You do realize these laws and processes protect you as well, don't you? If you lose your job for some reason, and lose your company insurance, you won't be rejected by other insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Companies can not put caps on medications if they are expensive.

And , no, i am not part of the so called 1%.

I mean, there is a lot of misinformation out there about the Affordable Health care act. It was found that when people were told what was in obamacare, but it wasn't associated with obamacare, they liked it a lot, but their minds shut off as soon as it's called 'obamacare'.

For example, the Kentucky implementation of the Affordable Healthcare Act is called KYNECT. Someone was out offering it to the public, and she just finished explaining what it does to this guy. He immediately said 'Wow, this is pretty good, a heck of a lot better than Obamacare.

She didn't have the heart to tell him it WAS Obamacare.

This is the crying shame of political discourse. We consider politicians liars and they don't disappoint. So, when one party doesn't want their competition get a victory (election, or passing a good bill), they distort the issue beyond recognition and only look for catch phrases to scare people from support.

It's a simple and effective strategy, even if it ultimately undermines the country...

[nayrbsnilloc]

I consider good health care in this country something that is needed for the health and well being of this country. If people are paid enough to live on , and they have proper health care, they don't have a certain desperation, and society as a whole can prosper. Right/non-rights do not come into consideration. What is a right anyway, but what society as a whole says is a right?

There are a lot of things that would be good for the well being of the country that the government doesn't (and shouldn't) provide. For example, mechanic service. It would be very good for the well being of this country to have free service from mechanics, that way people will have good maintenance for their reliable forms of transportation and can remain productive in the workforce. Everybody wins right?

I want people to be able to earn enough, and have access to the proper services so they can earn their health care.

I view health care as part of the compensation package for 'an honest days pay for an honest day's work'.

You view health care as compensation for "an honest day's work." That is good. So do many people, and that is why health care insurance/benefits are often included in contracts of employment, or at the very least highly sought after. This also denotes that healthcare should not be "free".

This is where rights come in. It is clear to me that whether you realize it or not, you agree that healthcare is not a basic human right. A "right" is something that is freely given by the public - such as the right to free speech and the right of assembly. (but also, what you think of as a right might not necessarily be given as one, hence why the "right to bear arms" is under debate. Something can be thought of as a right and yet not be given as one.)

Receiving free health care is not a basic human right. The availability of health care is, and that is something that exists in America.