Using logic and reason to oppose abortion...

[questioner4]

Okay, even though I've been questioning my faith for over a year, I am still firmly pro-life - although I believe 'traditional' pro-lifers go about it the wrong way. I believe thast abortion is wrong, because I oppose discrimination on all grounds. I believe it is being discriminatory to deny basic human rights to the smallest humans, simply because they are still dependant on the mother. It really would be nice to hear people oppose abortion on grounds other than the Bible.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are you a 'non-traditional pro-lifer'? If you are Christian and pro-life, can you think of any non-Biblical reasons to oppose abortion?

[steen]

AH, that is very telling of your point actually being based on emotional fervor but with no thought to the consequenses of your emotional focus.

Interesting how A) you do not reply to the post directed toward you,

Well, there has to be a point in replying, after all. If your post was pointless, then there is no reason to answer it.

yet to one directed toward someone else,

Oh, I must have hit a nerve.

and B) how you are so ready to change opinion and even fact (ooo how you hate it when I use that word) into emotional fervor.

Why the lie? I have no problem when you call something a fact as long as it actually is factual. That I call you on it when you falsely portray emotional ranting as "facts" that doesn't mean that I hate anything; only that I correct your falsehoods.

There is a very simply fix: Stop making false claims, stop your falsehoods. Then there wouldn't be anything for me to call you on and you wouldn't get so upset. See how simple it is?

Is it not a fact that if there is a fetus in the womb that it has a chance of developing into a human being

Yes, it could become a being.

and living?

It already IS living. The sperm and egg were living, and life merely continued into the zygote, embryo and fetus. They very much are alive.

Thus wouldn't it be logical that if I am against abortion, that I would like a fetus to have a chance at living per my argument that was actually directed toward you?

Sure that is logical. What is the point?

I see no fervor here, only a short statement and summary of my position on this matter.

Well, you spew nonsense about children, when you are actually talking about fetuses (and presumably also about embryos?). And you have this burning desire to see your single goal fulfilled but with no thought towards what the consequences would be. That surely is a sign of emotional fervor rather than logical evaluation and thinking an issue through.

[steen]

It comes down to mother nature saying YOU have a chance of life, then mother human saying NO! Pro choice means no choice for those that really matter.

The one that really matter is the woman. Pro-life means no choice for those that really matter.

[Curious]

It comes down to mother nature saying YOU have a chance of life, then mother human saying NO! Pro choice means no choice for those that really matter.

The one that really matter is the woman. Pro-life means no choice for those that really matter.

I think it is down to the choices that the women make that actually lead to the state of pregnancy in the first place so I don't see how you can say there is no choice for the woman. If we are to use logic and reason rather than our own personal opinion (my own included), I suggest that it is the unborn child that matters more than the woman. Without the pre-eminence of the unborn's rights there is a theoretical risk of the species becoming extinct. What if all women were to demand abortions 100% of the time? If it is ok for some to do it, why not for all to do it? Isn't that an abomination against nature and mankind.

[steen]

It comes down to mother nature saying YOU have a chance of life, then mother human saying NO! Pro choice means no choice for those that really matter.

The one that really matter is the woman. Pro-life means no choice for those that really matter.

I think it is down to the choices that the women make that actually lead to the state of pregnancy in the first place

Ah, like the smoker choosing to get lung cancer?

so I don't see how you can say there is no choice for the woman. If we are to use logic and reason rather than our own personal opinion (my own included), I suggest that it is the unborn child that matters more than the woman. Without the pre-eminence of the unborn's rights there is a theoretical risk of the species becoming extinct.

utterly bogus. you might as well argue that without abortion, we risk overpopulation and the deat of humanity.

What if all women were to demand abortions 100% of the time? If it is ok for some to do it, why not for all to do it?

Sure, if they all want to, it is their right. Women don't have a duty to propagate humanity.

Isn't that an abomination against nature and mankind.

Nope.

[Curious]

Ah, like the smoker choosing to get lung cancer?

The smoker chooses to take the risk. This is why the NHS is debating on whether or not to treat such people along with alcoholics and the obese.

utterly bogus. you might as well argue that without abortion, we risk overpopulation and the deat of humanity.

How is it bogus? A single generation that opts for mass termination would end the species forever.
Overpopulation is culled naturally, population below a critical value leads to extinction so your argument is not comparable in any way.

What if all women were to demand abortions 100% of the time? If it is ok for some to do it, why not for all to do it?

Sure, if they all want to, it is their right. Women don't have a duty to propagate humanity.

Err..why exactly is it their right?
I am not saying women have a duty to propagate humanity but it is their one and only vital function in respect to the species.

[steen]

Ah, like the smoker choosing to get lung cancer?

The smoker chooses to take the risk. This is why the NHS is debating on whether or not to treat such people along with alcoholics and the obese.

Correction. Some conservative elemants have made that suggestion. The medical community in no way are adopting that idea.

utterly bogus. you might as well argue that without abortion, we risk overpopulation and the deat of humanity.

How is it bogus? A single generation that opts for mass termination would end the species forever.

And a single generation optiong for 10+ kids, and the world's bisophere crashes, same result.

Overpopulation is culled naturally, population below a critical value leads to extinction so your argument is not comparable in any way.

Extreme overpopulation results in a complete loss of resources.

What if all women were to demand abortions 100% of the time? If it is ok for some to do it, why not for all to do it?

Sure, if they all want to, it is their right. Women don't have a duty to propagate humanity.

Err..why exactly is it their right?
I am not saying women have a duty to propagate humanity but it is their one and only vital function in respect to the species.

They have no "function," they are not brood mares.

[1John2_26]

Get pregnant have a baby.

Unless you "terminate the pregnancy" which "logically" means ending the life of the baby.

See how easy that is.

It is time for logic and reason to end the legalized killing of babies.

It's pretty simple when certain "kinds" of people don't squeeze their eyes shut to the truth, while screaming "it's not a baby!"

[steen]

Get pregnant have a baby.

or have an abortion.

Unless you "terminate the pregnancy" which "logically" means ending the life of the baby.

Nope, that still remains nonsense, prolife, revisionist linguistic hyperbole.

See how easy that is.

See how silly your deceptive claims are?

It is time for logic and reason to end the legalized killing of babies.

There is no laws allowing for the killing of babies. You are spewing pure nonsense now.

It's pretty simple when certain "kinds" of people don't squeeze their eyes shut to the truth, while screaming "it's not a baby!"

Bwahahaha. "Baby" is a developmental stage beginning after birth. That the position of prolife is so incredibly lame and weak that you have to be deceptive and misrepresentative of biological concepts to even be able to make an argument, that just is lame.

[Cephus]

Ah, like the smoker choosing to get lung cancer?

The smoker chooses to take the risk. This is why the NHS is debating on whether or not to treat such people along with alcoholics and the obese.

Yes, but just because they take that risk doesn't mean that if they get lung cancer, we can all just laugh and deny them treatment. A woman who does not want to get pregnant, yet birth control fails, has a choice what to do with the resultant pregnancy, just like the smoker has a choice what to do with his lung cancer.

How is it bogus? A single generation that opts for mass termination would end the species forever.

Do you have any idea how silly that sounds? Honestly?

Err..why exactly is it their right?

Women have a right to control their own bodies. Why is this in question?

I am not saying women have a duty to propagate humanity but it is their one and only vital function in respect to the species.

Boy, you have very little respect for women, don't you?

[McCulloch]

I am not saying women have a duty to propagate humanity but it is their one and only vital function in respect to the species.

Boy, you have very little respect for women, don't you?

A position clearly in keeping with biblical theology.

I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and doubting. In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing; but (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works. Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. But I don’t permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. Adam wasn’t deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.