Adoption/Abortion

[Ooberman]

One of the key components to any policy that limits abortion is the increase in adoption.

Let's open this up to any comments about the general issue - related to both - but I will share a small side comment.

Married couples are known to provide more stable households for raising children, and increasing the amount of married couples increases the amount of families able to provide stable households for adopted children.

Thus, allowing gay marriage provides a perfect solution for so many orphans.

In fact, it's one of the things I am so proud of my sister and her partner for. They have tried to adopt for years, and after a few horror stories (people hiding severe psychological issues from them, simply to unload the kids), they have finally adopted two children: one older, one an infant.


It seems to me the solutions are in front of us but religious and cultural mores keep us from doing the right thing: allowing gay marriage, increasing adoption, decreasing abortion (by keeping it legal), and saving the world...

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 106 by Clownboat]

This gets you riled up?!?!?!
I think removing the plank in your eye should be applied here IMO.

I don't know where you get this idea from.

Far from getting riled up, I dedicate my time to going into bat for the women who are pregnant and are not sure if they want an abortion or not. Our organisation helps them in any way we can to allow them to carry the BABY to full term and then become a good mother to it.

The least of my worries is planks. I think atheists have the corner on that market.
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Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and don't try to stop them! People who are like these children belong to God's kingdom."

[10CC]

[Replying to post 106 by Clownboat]

I'm amazed at your ability to compartmentalize.
God provides a soul to a baby, yet 4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage.
No biggie right?

That is your take on things but that is to be expected as all atheists are not happy unless they are finding something to criticise God for.

Now as I understand it, When God created Adam and Eve they were perfect. When they sinned, it brought about decay and degradation and this has been going on for 6,000 years. The scripture describes it as the earth "groaning."

In Adam's day and those following people lived up to 930 years, because the rot had not set in at that stage as its destructive power was very gradual.

Now that we are not far from the end times, the destruction of planet earth is almost total. In its finality it will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth will take its place.

The fact that an embryo dies is the result of sin, not God. Therefore it means that man is responsible for this fact, not God, because of their sin.

Mind you, being an atheist, I do not expect you to understand this or accept it but then, that is your problem, not mine.

Every miscreant in the world is god, cause it's never their fault either
Come the great day of resurrection what are these fertilized eggs gonna come back as?

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 112 by 10CC]

Come the great day of resurrection what are these fertilized eggs gonna come back as?

A good question. As you seem to have all the answers, why don't you inform us.
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2 Peter 3:7 But God has commanded the present heavens and earth to remain until the day of judgment. Then they will be set on fire, and ungodly people will be destroyed.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 106 by Clownboat]

I'm amazed at your ability to compartmentalize.
God provides a soul to a baby, yet 4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage.
No biggie right?

That is your take on things but that is to be expected as all atheists are not happy unless they are finding something to criticise God for.

Now as I understand it, When God created Adam and Eve they were perfect. When they sinned, it brought about decay and degradation and this has been going on for 6,000 years. The scripture describes it as the earth "groaning."

In Adam's day and those following people lived up to 930 years, because the rot had not set in at that stage as its destructive power was very gradual.

Now that we are not far from the end times, the destruction of planet earth is almost total. In its finality it will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth will take its place.

The fact that an embryo dies is the result of sin, not God. Therefore it means that man is responsible for this fact, not God, because of their sin.

Mind you, being an atheist, I do not expect you to understand this or accept it but then, that is your problem, not mine.

Gosh, you make LOTS of unsupported claims. Can you show there was an 'ADAM at all, much less 'in his day'. OTher than a book of stories from the bronze age, can you show that anybody lived to be 930?? Let's see your evidence.

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 114 by Goat]

Gosh, you make LOTS of unsupported claims. Can you show there was an 'ADAM at all, much less 'in his day'. OTher than a book of stories from the bronze age, can you show that anybody lived to be 930?? Let's see your evidence.

Gosh, that is what atheists do all the time. I mean, from goo to you via the zoo. Can't get more banal than that.

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Mark 15:39 A Roman army officer was standing in front of Jesus. When the officer saw how Jesus died, he said, "This man really was the Son of God!"

[otseng]

Readers, have you noticed that the frog eater has some deficiency in the use of the English language?

Having been caught with his pants down, he is desperately trying to get out of a fopah of his own making.

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[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 100 by Clownboat]

First of, babies don't get aborted. Blastocysts and fetuses do.

Bernard Nathenson, once one of the USA's biggest providers of abortion said in a TV interview "Every abortion kills a BABY."

Carol Everett, who owned three abortion clinics said she gave them up because she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.

Naomi ???? who is a model and pro-abortion said on TV that although she was pro-abortion, she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.

A few facts about babies in the womb....

1. 21 days: pumps own blood
2. 42 days: brain waves recorded
3. 7 weeks: sucks thumb
4. 8 weeks: all body systems present
5. 9 weeks: makes fist
6. 11 weeks: spontaneous breaching
7. 16 weeks: swims, kicks

Science has shown us quite clearly that babies do indeed feel pain. For example, surgeon Robert Shearin argues that unborn babies can experience pain at quite an early age: “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain. . . . [At this point she] responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be deemed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.�

More recently a British review of the latest research has found that an unborn baby is definitely aware of pain by 24 weeks, and possibly aware as early as 20 weeks.

And professor of neurobiology and anatomy Maureen L. Condic recently presented scientific evidence concerning the ability of unborn children to experience pain at a U.S. House subcommittee. I offer here a few excerpts from her written testimony: “To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development. There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.

By the time that a baby has been in utero for one month, blood is pumping around the body. In the second month, facial features develop, including the growth of ears, eyes, arms, legs, toes, and fingers. At six weeks, the baby’s brain, spinal cord, and central nervous system are all pretty well formed — in outline at least. By the two-month mark, sensory organs begin to develop and bone replaces cartilage.

Three months in, arms, hands, fingers, feet, and toes are fully formed, and the baby can grab with its fists as well as open and close its mouth. Teeth are on their way, as are reproductive organs. In month four, the baby is fully formed, and eyelids, eyebrows, eyelashes, nails, and hair develop. At this point, a baby can suck his thumb, yawn, hiccup, stretch, and make faces. At 18 weeks, the baby can move around, and experience REM sleep, including dreams. At 20 weeks, some studies show, it can recognize its mother’s voice.

Amazing how these "none living beings" experience so much and you obviously do no t know that foetus is Latin for baby.

You want to know what is amazing to me?
You totally disregard that this god you believe in is the biggest abortionist of all.

God creates a baby, implants a soul, and yet 1 out of 5 fertilized eggs make it to the birth stage.

I'm amazed at your ability to compartmentalize.
God provides a soul to a baby, yet 4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage.
No biggie right?

Contrast this with a women deciding that she does not want to go through with her attempt at having a child. Keep in mind, there is no guarantee that the fetus will come to term, the odds are actually against it happening.

This gets you riled up?!?!?!
I think removing the plank in your eye should be applied here IMO.

I have absolutely no respect for this argument. It is a very typical pro-abortion argument, that says that because the first nine months of a human's existence (the time one spends in the womb, before birth) is probably the most hazardous time in life, that because...what did you write..'4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage' (this is incorrect, by the way), that THIS makes it acceptable to kill off the survivors.

I find this argument to be the most cynical, unacceptable and utterly objectionable argument for abortion I have come up against. It is the equivalent of saying that because Stalin starved and murdered people in the millions, or because Hitler gassed and cremated people in the millions, that it is just fine for you to go out and shoot the folks who got out of the Soviet Union or escaped Buchenwald. It is exactly like claiming that, because so many did not get out of the Twin Towers on 9/11, that it would be just fine for you to stand outside the doors and shoot the folks who did.

There are, in my view at least, only two acceptable reasons for getting an abortion. The first is in the case of saving the mother's life, because then it's a case of "lose one or lose both." The second is in the case of rape when carrying the baby to term is too much, psychologically and/or physically, for the woman. In that second case, the rapist should be charged with murder as well as rape.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 114 by Goat]

Gosh, you make LOTS of unsupported claims. Can you show there was an 'ADAM at all, much less 'in his day'. OTher than a book of stories from the bronze age, can you show that anybody lived to be 930?? Let's see your evidence.

Gosh, that is what atheists do all the time. I mean, from goo to you via the zoo. Can't get more banal than that.

[/b]

To be precise, that would be 'biologists', and that, actually, is supported, if you had the education to understand it. Dawkins book 'The greatest show on earth' give a detailed view, (although still at a very high level') of the evidence of that.

However, people reading with a chip on their shoulder won't be convinced, because their mind is made up.

[10CC]

[Replying to post 100 by Clownboat]

First of, babies don't get aborted. Blastocysts and fetuses do.

Bernard Nathenson, once one of the USA's biggest providers of abortion said in a TV interview "Every abortion kills a BABY."

Carol Everett, who owned three abortion clinics said she gave them up because she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.

Naomi ???? who is a model and pro-abortion said on TV that although she was pro-abortion, she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.

A few facts about babies in the womb....

1. 21 days: pumps own blood
2. 42 days: brain waves recorded
3. 7 weeks: sucks thumb
4. 8 weeks: all body systems present
5. 9 weeks: makes fist
6. 11 weeks: spontaneous breaching
7. 16 weeks: swims, kicks

Science has shown us quite clearly that babies do indeed feel pain. For example, surgeon Robert Shearin argues that unborn babies can experience pain at quite an early age: “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain. . . . [At this point she] responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be deemed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.�

More recently a British review of the latest research has found that an unborn baby is definitely aware of pain by 24 weeks, and possibly aware as early as 20 weeks.

And professor of neurobiology and anatomy Maureen L. Condic recently presented scientific evidence concerning the ability of unborn children to experience pain at a U.S. House subcommittee. I offer here a few excerpts from her written testimony: “To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development. There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.

By the time that a baby has been in utero for one month, blood is pumping around the body. In the second month, facial features develop, including the growth of ears, eyes, arms, legs, toes, and fingers. At six weeks, the baby’s brain, spinal cord, and central nervous system are all pretty well formed — in outline at least. By the two-month mark, sensory organs begin to develop and bone replaces cartilage.

Three months in, arms, hands, fingers, feet, and toes are fully formed, and the baby can grab with its fists as well as open and close its mouth. Teeth are on their way, as are reproductive organs. In month four, the baby is fully formed, and eyelids, eyebrows, eyelashes, nails, and hair develop. At this point, a baby can suck his thumb, yawn, hiccup, stretch, and make faces. At 18 weeks, the baby can move around, and experience REM sleep, including dreams. At 20 weeks, some studies show, it can recognize its mother’s voice.

Amazing how these "none living beings" experience so much and you obviously do no t know that foetus is Latin for baby.

You want to know what is amazing to me?
You totally disregard that this god you believe in is the biggest abortionist of all.

God creates a baby, implants a soul, and yet 1 out of 5 fertilized eggs make it to the birth stage.

I'm amazed at your ability to compartmentalize.
God provides a soul to a baby, yet 4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage.
No biggie right?

Contrast this with a women deciding that she does not want to go through with her attempt at having a child. Keep in mind, there is no guarantee that the fetus will come to term, the odds are actually against it happening.

This gets you riled up?!?!?!
I think removing the plank in your eye should be applied here IMO.

I have absolutely no respect for this argument. It is a very typical pro-abortion argument, that says that because the first nine months of a human's existence (the time one spends in the womb, before birth) is probably the most hazardous time in life, that because...what did you write..'4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage' (this is incorrect, by the way), that THIS makes it acceptable to kill off the survivors.

It is most certainly not a pro-abortion argument. It is in fact an argument that denies the "christian" claim that their god "hates" and refuses humanity the right to abortion. If your god, who creates all life is allowed to destroy millions of lives every day how can it condemn a few thousand/day and condone capital punishment for where somebody's penis goes? Or other obscene rulings?

[dianaiad]

It is most certainly not a pro-abortion argument. It is in fact an argument that denies the "christian" claim that their god "hates" and refuses humanity the right to abortion. If your god, who creates all life is allowed to destroy millions of lives every day how can it condemn a few thousand/day and condone capital punishment for where somebody's penis goes? Or other obscene rulings?

....and there you go, telling me that it is not your argument, and then you REPEAT THE ARGUMENT.

You know, the one that says that because it's hard to survive to birth, that those who object to abortion have no right to do so? That it's OK to kill off the survivors BECAUSE it's so hard to survive?

BTW, should there be a God (and I believe that there is-- I'm just acknowledging that others don't think so), then He 'kills off" ALL of us eventually. We all die. Don't know anybody who hasn't. In fact, even Jesus died, according to the story. The promise is that we will all continue on spiritually, and in some beliefs, be resurrected into physical bodies.

So if we ALL die, does that mean, according to your logic and criticism, that you have no moral objection to killing any and everybody you feel a mind to?