What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[Purple Knight]

If you don't consider it bad that a person makes gay people's lives miserable every waking minute to the point that they want to kill themselves, then we simply differ on what evil is.

It's just that, the idea that this is evil never comes up when cisgender, straight white people are bullied. I went to a bad school. A very bad school. Kids had cigarettes, knives, and guns. No one really cared. I was always told it was my fault if I got beat up. Whatever it is you're doing, and those kids who don't get beat up aren't doing, figure it out and stop doing it.

The only problem with the new attitude is that the old attitude hasn't changed, and the new people usually endorse it, unless their favourite group is targeted.

If you're not special, no one cares if you're bullied. People will still tell you to stop whining and get over it. There is not legal action, there is not reform, there aren't bills and signatures. People care more about making pot more legal than it already is, than they care about what happens to the regular kids.

If you tell me honestly that a gay or trans life matters more, so they need more rights, I'll be on your side. I'll consider it just history swinging the other way. Who it is right to protect, and who it is right to hurt, that is not my decision. But if you tell me they need extra rights because equality I can't get behind that, because I cannot understand that.

[boatsnguitars]

If you don't consider it bad that a person makes gay people's lives miserable every waking minute to the point that they want to kill themselves, then we simply differ on what evil is.

It's just that, the idea that this is evil never comes up when cisgender, straight white people are bullied. I went to a bad school. A very bad school. Kids had cigarettes, knives, and guns. No one really cared. I was always told it was my fault if I got beat up. Whatever it is you're doing, and those kids who don't get beat up aren't doing, figure it out and stop doing it.

The only problem with the new attitude is that the old attitude hasn't changed, and the new people usually endorse it, unless their favourite group is targeted.

If you're not special, no one cares if you're bullied. People will still tell you to stop whining and get over it. There is not legal action, there is not reform, there aren't bills and signatures. People care more about making pot more legal than it already is, than they care about what happens to the regular kids.

If you tell me honestly that a gay or trans life matters more, so they need more rights, I'll be on your side. I'll consider it just history swinging the other way. Who it is right to protect, and who it is right to hurt, that is not my decision. But if you tell me they need extra rights because equality I can't get behind that, because I cannot understand that.

I disagree with your basic premise. Bullying has always been criticized, regardless of the source - except by Bigots and - for lack of a better description: Right Wingers: People who say, "It's just kids testing their metal! It's just good-natured ribbing - I can't help it if some people can't take a joke. They've got to toughen up! My Dad used to beat me and it taught me that you have to fight in this world. Pansies and fags have to wake up and grow thicker skin.."

You know exactly what I am talking about. Whether that is coming from someone cis or gay doesn't matter - I think they are the ones in the wrong. I don't feel any obligation to accept that their idea of telling everyone to grow a thicker skin - because they want to throw spears - is right or good.

[Purple Knight]

I disagree with your basic premise. Bullying has always been criticized, regardless of the source - except by Bigots and - for lack of a better description: Right Wingers: People who say, "It's just kids testing their metal! It's just good-natured ribbing - I can't help it if some people can't take a joke. They've got to toughen up! My Dad used to beat me and it taught me that you have to fight in this world. Pansies and fags have to wake up and grow thicker skin.."

You know exactly what I am talking about. Whether that is coming from someone cis or gay doesn't matter - I think they are the ones in the wrong. I don't feel any obligation to accept that their idea of telling everyone to grow a thicker skin - because they want to throw spears - is right or good.

The only thing I'd have you accept is that a lot of the opposition to your way of thinking comes from people who have never experienced someone defending their right not to be bullied. They have only ever been told to get over it, no wrong has been done, respect that other person's free speech. I know I haven't experienced being defended in real life. So it's not real to me. It feels... made-up - the idea that no people shouldn't be bullied and that ought to be defended in real life, with policy, and not just with words. It feels like a fairy tale I'll be laughed at for believing in. Indeed it's like there's an agenda and you know, whatever sounds good and is needed to push that agenda.

I don't think this is very likely to be true. I think your side probably is genuinely against bullying. But I do think your side (not you in particular) vastly over-assumes the protection people who are not in a special group have from bullying, so when you demand more for the special folks in the name of equality, and policy that would once again leave people high and dry if they have no special group, that's why you're getting so much pushback.

But when someone has experienced every day, what you're saying is wrong, wrong, wrong and should never happen, and nobody has ever said to them, in person, that it shouldn't, people get the idea that it's phony. Not only that, but people get incredibly dismissive when it's suggested that straight, white, cis people can be hurt or misgendered or whatever too. The suggestion is, they can't, because they're not human. Not just, they can't, because they're oppressors, but they can't, because they're not human. I don't see anything else this is implying.

I'm not going to ping this person but you can click on my post and see who it is, utterly dismissing the idea that a cis person can be misgendered, and hurt by that, after having just called misgendering someone "dehumanising" and comparing it to saying Black people aren't human.

She didn't say trans women weren't women. She's (half-jokingly) (imo) implying she should have the right to classify "people who menstruate" as women.

Right, she implied that trans women aren't women, which generated a lot of blowback.

That doesn't mean you can't classify trans women as women. It just means she can classify it her way. Some words have multiple definitions. Some definitions with wide usage are scientifically bad, and so what?

It's terribly offensive to transgender people, no different than if she'd said black people aren't really "human". Sure, she has the right to say that and personally define "human" as she pleases, but once she makes that view public she opens herself up to a public reaction.

It's terribly offensive to transgender people, no different than if she'd said black people aren't really "human". Sure, she has the right to say that and personally define "human" as she pleases, but once she makes that view public she opens herself up to a public reaction.

But she didn't say they weren't human. She implied they weren't women according to her.

Really? You don't understand that when someone makes a comment like that, they're not actually questioning your sex or gender and they're really just insulting or teasing you for not being sufficiently "manly'? So like when you're playing golf, and you don't hit the ball to the hole and another guy says "I think your purse got in the way", you understand that as him seriously questioning your sex/gender?

Sex no. Gender yes. Some people think very seriously that manhood is earned. Some tribal cultures don't regard you as a man until you do some ritual, and this will have real consequences. Whether or not the person was born with XY chromosomes and male genitalia isn't what's being questioned.

Cis men question one another's gender identity and sexual orientation all the time. It wouldn't be sufficiently insulting to even be a tease if it wasn't the goal of the one being teased to be regarded as a straight man. That acknowledgement has been, since ever, something you don't get to demand from anyone.

Cis women also do things that demoralise other cis women out of their gender identity. You know that one girl who doesn't get to wear makeup or jewelry when the rest of the class does, because her parents are too conservative regarding their daughter as just a child? Nobody bats an eyelash at how the rest treat her, even if it includes saying she's a dog, not a girl. Nobody says that's "dehumanising" and nobody whips up mobs to shame people for saying it, yet I've heard it too often to count. Trump also uses it to describe ugly women if I'm not mistaken.

Equality for trans people would be that you have your gender identity questioned sometimes and it's hurtful, sometimes extremely hurtful. And you get over it. Equality for trans people is that you get treated exactly the same as cis people of your gender. Cis women are not nice to other cis women.

Sex no. Gender yes.

Thanks for your time.

Do you see how this went? Do you see how dismissive of suffering this is, from the perspective of someone who is not "special" and has just been told, "No, it doesn't matter if people hurt you."?

By the 906th time you're hurt, and it's dismissed as, "That was a different context, what they did to you was permissible," and the 411th time you're told, "OMG no you can't say that, that was out of line, that was horrible, you deserve consequences," and when you have not one single counter-example, it starts to feel like a facade designed to hurt you and elevate others. It will feel that way even if it really is just a terrible coincidence. And the thing is, you'll be totally justified in assuming the hostile intent, because if it really is hostile and designed with that intent, you will never have more proof than the non-existence of a counter-example, unless of course you have a telepath handy, and even then, the non-telepaths have no more proof than their testimony, which can easily be disregarded.

I think you're one of the more intelligent posters on the site and you could easily develop my ability to see all sides at once. So that's what I'm asking of you.

[alexxcJRO]

If you don't consider it bad that a person makes gay people's lives miserable every waking minute to the point that they want to kill themselves, then we simply differ on what evil is.

It's just that, the idea that this is evil never comes up when cisgender, straight white people are bullied. I went to a bad school. A very bad school. Kids had cigarettes, knives, and guns. No one really cared. I was always told it was my fault if I got beat up. Whatever it is you're doing, and those kids who don't get beat up aren't doing, figure it out and stop doing it.

The only problem with the new attitude is that the old attitude hasn't changed, and the new people usually endorse it, unless their favourite group is targeted.

If you're not special, no one cares if you're bullied. People will still tell you to stop whining and get over it. There is not legal action, there is not reform, there aren't bills and signatures. People care more about making pot more legal than it already is, than they care about what happens to the regular kids.

If you tell me honestly that a gay or trans life matters more, so they need more rights, I'll be on your side. I'll consider it just history swinging the other way. Who it is right to protect, and who it is right to hurt, that is not my decision. But if you tell me they need extra rights because equality I can't get behind that, because I cannot understand that.

Bulling is evil and malevolent. Plain and simple. Its just cruelty for the sake of cruelty as a fun endeavour. Bulling should not be tolerated no matter who does it against who.

When I was little I was in a school where there was much bulling.
The small kids, nerdy kids were beaten, put with heads in toilets, had their food stollen, hanged in the hallways racks.

I was lucky I was not that small and beat the bullies every time one tried to bully me. I have been in so many fights in middle school it was like I was in a jungle full of animals.

People who say "stop whining and get over it" are just morons who do not have a consistent morality and mostly are malevolent, evil individuals themselves. That's why are not bothered by evil done by others.

Also there is the matter that people often downplays the evil that happens to others because are too lazy and cowards to do something about it. So they behave like its not happening.

We have an example of malevolent, evil individuals morons who do not have a consistent morality today:

Students in America are virtue signaling, protesting against the evil done by IDF against the Palestinians from Gaza but are ignoring/downplaying/missing the evil done by Hamas.
The morons from the other side are horrified by what Hamas has done but are ignoring/downplaying/missing the evil done by IDF.

Its like a tragic-comedy play from Shakespeare.
One does not know if to be sad or laugh.

[LittleNipper]

So anyway the question was: "What is wrong with being gay?" I have regarded this question, and my response is why would anyone really want to be "gay". Personally, when I was a young man, I wanted a family. I wanted to have children. I wanted to have a decent job to be able to provide for my family (though not necessary in that order ). I wanted to do good in school. I wanted to be great at something special... I even wanted my friends to come to know JESUS as their personal SAVIOR. I wanted to be liked.

Please note: Wanting to hop into bed and having my jollies excited wasn't a priority on my wish list. And maybe that is just one thing wrong with the whole "gay" thing. It comes across as the priority, the end all of living. And frankly, if sex, sex, sex, sex is all there is to living ---- then life is rather limited in scope and perhaps even mundane. When sex or drugs or drinking become the center of one's attention, then there is little room for much else. Frankly, I personally never wanted to be idolized nor idolize anyone else. I just enjoyed be a friend and have friends.

[Purple Knight]

People who say "stop whining and get over it" are just morons who do not have a consistent morality and mostly are malevolent, evil individuals themselves. That's why are not bothered by evil done by others.

That, or they think that not everything that hurts them has to be wrong. I had to grow up and learn that I don't have a right not to be bullied. People get to say mean things to me. People get to hurt me, within certain bounds. I learned that from experience and frankly I won't unlearn it until there is a counterexample. Until there's a day when someone is mean and nasty and hurtful to me, and that creates real backlash for whoever did it, I no more believe in a universal right not to be bullied than I believe in the tooth fairy.

If you say you want to create such a universal right, I would support that, but I don't know how that would be accomplished. I guess the day schools aren't cesspits of violence, and bullies face real consequences, I'll believe in the right you've created.

However I would tell any Libertarian who asked that I did not think it was a natural and true right that exists by default, but a government-created right like free healthcare or free food for the poor. I would still defend the idea that it made life better, but I know that no such universal right exists, I know it from experience, and you can't tell me the sky isn't blue.

If you say, you want to create such a right, but only for gay, trans, POCs, I would also support that because it's not a natural right and it can be whatever you want it to be, and it can be whatever the government will enforce. However, if someone asks me if it is fair or equal, I will say it's not, and life's not fair or meant to be fair.

[alexxcJRO]

People who say "stop whining and get over it" are just morons who do not have a consistent morality and mostly are malevolent, evil individuals themselves. That's why are not bothered by evil done by others.

That, or they think that not everything that hurts them has to be wrong. I had to grow up and learn that I don't have a right not to be bullied. People get to say mean things to me. People get to hurt me, within certain bounds. I learned that from experience and frankly I won't unlearn it until there is a counterexample. Until there's a day when someone is mean and nasty and hurtful to me, and that creates real backlash for whoever did it, I no more believe in a universal right not to be bullied than I believe in the tooth fairy.

If you say you want to create such a universal right, I would support that, but I don't know how that would be accomplished. I guess the day schools aren't cesspits of violence, and bullies face real consequences, I'll believe in the right you've created.

However I would tell any Libertarian who asked that I did not think it was a natural and true right that exists by default, but a government-created right like free healthcare or free food for the poor. I would still defend the idea that it made life better, but I know that no such universal right exists, I know it from experience, and you can't tell me the sky isn't blue.

If you say, you want to create such a right, but only for gay, trans, POCs, I would also support that because it's not a natural right and it can be whatever you want it to be, and it can be whatever the government will enforce. However, if someone asks me if it is fair or equal, I will say it's not, and life's not fair or meant to be fair.

Bulling is evil and malevolent. Plain and simple. Its just cruelty for the sake of cruelty as a fun endeavour.
We should strive for a society where we have less instances of evil, malevolence and cruelty.

I don't get your point!

Q: Are you arguing that bulling is a good thing?
Q: Are you of the principle that something is wrong only if the society deems it wrong? Only when the preponderance of the moronic sheeple deems it wrong?

[Purple Knight]

Q: Are you arguing that bulling is a good thing?

No.

Q: Are you of the principle that something is wrong only if the society deems it wrong? Only when the preponderance of the moronic sheeple deems it wrong?

Sort of, yes. Every time you bring down social pressure and ruin someone for simply exercising a right the sheeple and by their natural extension, the law, gives them, you're being a tyrant. Yes they're morons. Yes if I were dictator I'd do things differently. But there's a reason we have to decide these things together and make sure everyone has to follow the same rules: Because we want to treat people equally.

And equality won't happen if we just ignore the stupid laws and rights the sheeple made and enforce what we know is right. What will happen is, some people will be punished for doing what others are exalted for. That's not a free or fair society. It's a caste system, with the less socially adept held to much greater standards, and essentially made into slaves to the ones who can always explain how, in this situation, what they did was right.

Part of an equal society is that if someone is treated unfairly, they get to stand up for themselves. That means, if someone is denied equal rights or treatment, they get to cry foul. On the other side, if someone is given special treatment, likewise, others may cry foul. Whichever this is, I cry foul. I'm not going to be beaten every day and tormented and told how I ought to respect the rights of people to do that, and then not stand up for my right to do the same. Not being bullied is a right when it's applied to everyone. If I see the slightest evidence that anyone is trying to do that, okay fine. Before that, it's the tooth fairy and I don't believe in it.

[boatsnguitars]

So anyway the question was: "What is wrong with being gay?" I have regarded this question, and my response is why would anyone really want to be "gay". Personally, when I was a young man, I wanted a family. I wanted to have children. I wanted to have a decent job to be able to provide for my family (though not necessary in that order ). I wanted to do good in school. I wanted to be great at something special... I even wanted my friends to come to know JESUS as their personal SAVIOR. I wanted to be liked.

Please note: Wanting to hop into bed and having my jollies excited wasn't a priority on my wish list. And maybe that is just one thing wrong with the whole "gay" thing. It comes across as the priority, the end all of living. And frankly, if sex, sex, sex, sex is all there is to living ---- then life is rather limited in scope and perhaps even mundane. When sex or drugs or drinking become the center of one's attention, then there is little room for much else. Frankly, I personally never wanted to be idolized nor idolize anyone else. I just enjoyed be a friend and have friends.

I loved my best friend in college. I was not sexually attracted to him, and never thought about it except to wonder "how cool would it be that we could live together and have fun like this forever?"

I am definitely on the heterosexual side of the curve, but the idea of having him as a friend, housemate, for life was really cool. If we both had been gay, it might have been a perfect match. Alas (or not because I love my wife and sex with her), we were not gay.

But, if someone asked me "why would someo0ne want to be gay" - I would answer because of this reason.

Perhaps, like Jesus, I found comfort in the company of men - and occasional prostitutes... (Ok, no, I didn't hang out with prostitutes - I never could be like Jesus, as much as I tried... More like a lot of dating. Being a musician gets you A LOT of women...)

[alexxcJRO]

Q: Are you arguing that bulling is a good thing?

No.

Q: Are you of the principle that something is wrong only if the society deems it wrong? Only when the preponderance of the moronic sheeple deems it wrong?

Sort of, yes. Every time you bring down social pressure and ruin someone for simply exercising a right the sheeple and by their natural extension, the law, gives them, you're being a tyrant. Yes they're morons. Yes if I were dictator I'd do things differently. But there's a reason we have to decide these things together and make sure everyone has to follow the same rules: Because we want to treat people equally.

And equality won't happen if we just ignore the stupid laws and rights the sheeple made and enforce what we know is right. What will happen is, some people will be punished for doing what others are exalted for. That's not a free or fair society. It's a caste system, with the less socially adept held to much greater standards, and essentially made into slaves to the ones who can always explain how, in this situation, what they did was right.

Part of an equal society is that if someone is treated unfairly, they get to stand up for themselves. That means, if someone is denied equal rights or treatment, they get to cry foul. On the other side, if someone is given special treatment, likewise, others may cry foul. Whichever this is, I cry foul. I'm not going to be beaten every day and tormented and told how I ought to respect the rights of people to do that, and then not stand up for my right to do the same. Not being bullied is a right when it's applied to everyone. If I see the slightest evidence that anyone is trying to do that, okay fine. Before that, it's the tooth fairy and I don't believe in it.

1.
I was not arguing for enforcing someone's imaginings on what might be the right thing.
That leads as you say to totalitarism.
And off course their imaginings may be wrong or detrimental to society if the guy is a sociopath/psychopath and/or a moron(ex: Hitler). And here I include myself too. I am not immune to believing wrong things.

My point was that bullying is wrong/evil/malevolent and should be punished no matter who does it. I might be wrong but I don't think so. I rarely am wrong about something.

Bullying is not imaginative dear sir. It's a real thing.
It's detrimental to society.
And laws should be made to make it less present.

I think its an important factor to the mass shooting that are plaguing America together with the easy access to guns.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth".

2.
The "crying wolf"-protest its a good thing too.
Without the rebels, the social justice warriors we would have stagnant societies.
Without it the French revolution, Springtime of Nations of 1848, revolutions against Communism would not have happened and we would have been in a much worst place.

People who spend their free time to "cry wolf", protest against bigotry, climate change, animal factory farming-slaughter of billions of sentient beings and other things should be respected for their contribution or the attempt to changing/change the society to a better one.
For not being complacent with the current affairs.