One of the key components to any policy that limits abortion is the increase in adoption.
Let's open this up to any comments about the general issue - related to both - but I will share a small side comment.
Married couples are known to provide more stable households for raising children, and increasing the amount of married couples increases the amount of families able to provide stable households for adopted children.
Thus, allowing gay marriage provides a perfect solution for so many orphans.
In fact, it's one of the things I am so proud of my sister and her partner for. They have tried to adopt for years, and after a few horror stories (people hiding severe psychological issues from them, simply to unload the kids), they have finally adopted two children: one older, one an infant.
It seems to me the solutions are in front of us but religious and cultural mores keep us from doing the right thing: allowing gay marriage, increasing adoption, decreasing abortion (by keeping it legal), and saving the world...
Adoption/Abortion
Moderator: Moderators
Adoption/Abortion
Post #1Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees
Post #101
[Replying to post 99 by 10CC]
If the pregnancy support centre was Planned Parenthood, they always give you three options. Abortion, abortion or abortion. We have sent ladies who are not pregnant to them and in every case, without any test to ascertain that the woman is in fact pregnant, they have been pressurised into having an abortion for the simple reason that Planned Parenthood are not in business to help people. They are in business to make money and the best money spinner for them is abortion.
Now with a Centre like ours, we try and help them sort out the reasons why they want an abortion. Most of them are not aware of the alternatives available. When we outline what they are and how we can help them, the majority do not abort the baby.
Usually, miscarriages, my daughter in law had one, need medical assistance for the mother. We are not qualified to give that so they usually go to the hospital, not Pregnancy Support Centres.
We don't blame anyone because we are not into the blame game. We are there to help and care.
I am glad you raised the number of miscarriages as I don't know what the figure is. You obviously do, so I would be glad to hear from you on that matter.
I can assure you it is not saintliness. I am motivated by two things only. One, I love babies (I had two of my own and now have seven grandchildren) and the fact that abortion never solves anything so every women has the right to know the truth about it. When they are told the truth, we find that the majority do not abort, and no, we do not make the decision for them as that is not our role.
Thankyou for asking as it gives me the opportunity to expand on the work of the Pregnancy Support Centres.And how do you treat the ones who want to have an abortion? And how do you treat the ones that miscarry (spontaneous abortion) and who do you blame for that? God works in mysterious ways and aborts many millions more than humans do. I commend you on your saintlyness never the less.
If the pregnancy support centre was Planned Parenthood, they always give you three options. Abortion, abortion or abortion. We have sent ladies who are not pregnant to them and in every case, without any test to ascertain that the woman is in fact pregnant, they have been pressurised into having an abortion for the simple reason that Planned Parenthood are not in business to help people. They are in business to make money and the best money spinner for them is abortion.
Now with a Centre like ours, we try and help them sort out the reasons why they want an abortion. Most of them are not aware of the alternatives available. When we outline what they are and how we can help them, the majority do not abort the baby.
Usually, miscarriages, my daughter in law had one, need medical assistance for the mother. We are not qualified to give that so they usually go to the hospital, not Pregnancy Support Centres.
We don't blame anyone because we are not into the blame game. We are there to help and care.
I am glad you raised the number of miscarriages as I don't know what the figure is. You obviously do, so I would be glad to hear from you on that matter.
I can assure you it is not saintliness. I am motivated by two things only. One, I love babies (I had two of my own and now have seven grandchildren) and the fact that abortion never solves anything so every women has the right to know the truth about it. When they are told the truth, we find that the majority do not abort, and no, we do not make the decision for them as that is not our role.
Post #102
[Replying to Clownboat]
It is like saying that a toy on the market that is very popular that has lead in it is OK because the more toys out there the more children are happy. The fact that the toy may cause illness or death is um, well....not relevant.
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Acts_4:12 and there is salvation in no other One, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved.
The spin is adoption = homosexuals are good parents.There is no spin there. It is straight forward, the more people that can adopt will directly affect the amount of kids that will be adopted. You will need to point out the spin, because it looks like a dodge on your part.
It is like saying that a toy on the market that is very popular that has lead in it is OK because the more toys out there the more children are happy. The fact that the toy may cause illness or death is um, well....not relevant.
========================================================================================================
Acts_4:12 and there is salvation in no other One, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved.
Post #103
[Replying to post 100 by Clownboat]
Carol Everett, who owned three abortion clinics said she gave them up because she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.
Naomi ???? who is a model and pro-abortion said on TV that although she was pro-abortion, she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.
A few facts about babies in the womb....
1. 21 days: pumps own blood
2. 42 days: brain waves recorded
3. 7 weeks: sucks thumb
4. 8 weeks: all body systems present
5. 9 weeks: makes fist
6. 11 weeks: spontaneous breaching
7. 16 weeks: swims, kicks
Science has shown us quite clearly that babies do indeed feel pain. For example, surgeon Robert Shearin argues that unborn babies can experience pain at quite an early age: “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain. . . . [At this point she] responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be deemed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.�
More recently a British review of the latest research has found that an unborn baby is definitely aware of pain by 24 weeks, and possibly aware as early as 20 weeks.
And professor of neurobiology and anatomy Maureen L. Condic recently presented scientific evidence concerning the ability of unborn children to experience pain at a U.S. House subcommittee. I offer here a few excerpts from her written testimony: “To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development. There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.
By the time that a baby has been in utero for one month, blood is pumping around the body. In the second month, facial features develop, including the growth of ears, eyes, arms, legs, toes, and fingers. At six weeks, the baby’s brain, spinal cord, and central nervous system are all pretty well formed — in outline at least. By the two-month mark, sensory organs begin to develop and bone replaces cartilage.
Three months in, arms, hands, fingers, feet, and toes are fully formed, and the baby can grab with its fists as well as open and close its mouth. Teeth are on their way, as are reproductive organs. In month four, the baby is fully formed, and eyelids, eyebrows, eyelashes, nails, and hair develop. At this point, a baby can suck his thumb, yawn, hiccup, stretch, and make faces. At 18 weeks, the baby can move around, and experience REM sleep, including dreams. At 20 weeks, some studies show, it can recognize its mother’s voice.
Amazing how these "none living beings" experience so much and you obviously do no t know that foetus is Latin for baby.
Bernard Nathenson, once one of the USA's biggest providers of abortion said in a TV interview "Every abortion kills a BABY."First of, babies don't get aborted. Blastocysts and fetuses do.
Carol Everett, who owned three abortion clinics said she gave them up because she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.
Naomi ???? who is a model and pro-abortion said on TV that although she was pro-abortion, she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.
A few facts about babies in the womb....
1. 21 days: pumps own blood
2. 42 days: brain waves recorded
3. 7 weeks: sucks thumb
4. 8 weeks: all body systems present
5. 9 weeks: makes fist
6. 11 weeks: spontaneous breaching
7. 16 weeks: swims, kicks
Science has shown us quite clearly that babies do indeed feel pain. For example, surgeon Robert Shearin argues that unborn babies can experience pain at quite an early age: “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain. . . . [At this point she] responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be deemed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.�
More recently a British review of the latest research has found that an unborn baby is definitely aware of pain by 24 weeks, and possibly aware as early as 20 weeks.
And professor of neurobiology and anatomy Maureen L. Condic recently presented scientific evidence concerning the ability of unborn children to experience pain at a U.S. House subcommittee. I offer here a few excerpts from her written testimony: “To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development. There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.
By the time that a baby has been in utero for one month, blood is pumping around the body. In the second month, facial features develop, including the growth of ears, eyes, arms, legs, toes, and fingers. At six weeks, the baby’s brain, spinal cord, and central nervous system are all pretty well formed — in outline at least. By the two-month mark, sensory organs begin to develop and bone replaces cartilage.
Three months in, arms, hands, fingers, feet, and toes are fully formed, and the baby can grab with its fists as well as open and close its mouth. Teeth are on their way, as are reproductive organs. In month four, the baby is fully formed, and eyelids, eyebrows, eyelashes, nails, and hair develop. At this point, a baby can suck his thumb, yawn, hiccup, stretch, and make faces. At 18 weeks, the baby can move around, and experience REM sleep, including dreams. At 20 weeks, some studies show, it can recognize its mother’s voice.
Amazing how these "none living beings" experience so much and you obviously do no t know that foetus is Latin for baby.
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Goat
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Post #104
[Replying to post 103 by wotsupdoc]
You do realize that putting words in bold does not make in any more true.
It is not a baby, it's a fetus.
Now, yes, at 24 weeks a fetus's brain is developed enough to feel pain. As a matter of fact, tests on premature babies who were born before 24 weeks so that they don't feel pain UNTIL the 24th week either.
HOWEVER, the abortions that are preformed after 24 weeks are very rarely 'for convenience', but because of medical issues. Sometimes, trying to delay an abortion when the fetus is not viable after the 24th week can KILL the woman carrying the fetus.
You do realize that putting words in bold does not make in any more true.
It is not a baby, it's a fetus.
Now, yes, at 24 weeks a fetus's brain is developed enough to feel pain. As a matter of fact, tests on premature babies who were born before 24 weeks so that they don't feel pain UNTIL the 24th week either.
HOWEVER, the abortions that are preformed after 24 weeks are very rarely 'for convenience', but because of medical issues. Sometimes, trying to delay an abortion when the fetus is not viable after the 24th week can KILL the woman carrying the fetus.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
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Clownboat
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Post #105
I see it now.wotsupdoc wrote: [Replying to Clownboat]
The spin is adoption = homosexuals are good parents.There is no spin there. It is straight forward, the more people that can adopt will directly affect the amount of kids that will be adopted. You will need to point out the spin, because it looks like a dodge on your part.
It is like saying that a toy on the market that is very popular that has lead in it is OK because the more toys out there the more children are happy. The fact that the toy may cause illness or death is um, well....not relevant.
========================================================================================================
Acts_4:12 and there is salvation in no other One, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved.
You added the spin in fact.
You see, no where did I say homosexuals are good or bad parents. I said, the more that are married, the more married couples we have to adopts.
You are adding your spin that homosexuals are not good parents. I think all the good homosexual parents would be insulted.
Do you even care though? Since they are second rate parents according to you, and since you likely view them as abominations, I assume this appeases your blanket condemnation.
I submit, it seems you use your religious beliefs as both a weapon and a shield in regards to your view of homosexuals.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Clownboat
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Post #106
wotsupdoc wrote: [Replying to post 100 by Clownboat]
Bernard Nathenson, once one of the USA's biggest providers of abortion said in a TV interview "Every abortion kills a BABY."First of, babies don't get aborted. Blastocysts and fetuses do.
Carol Everett, who owned three abortion clinics said she gave them up because she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.
Naomi ???? who is a model and pro-abortion said on TV that although she was pro-abortion, she knew that every abortion kills a BABY.
A few facts about babies in the womb....
1. 21 days: pumps own blood
2. 42 days: brain waves recorded
3. 7 weeks: sucks thumb
4. 8 weeks: all body systems present
5. 9 weeks: makes fist
6. 11 weeks: spontaneous breaching
7. 16 weeks: swims, kicks
Science has shown us quite clearly that babies do indeed feel pain. For example, surgeon Robert Shearin argues that unborn babies can experience pain at quite an early age: “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain. . . . [At this point she] responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be deemed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.�
More recently a British review of the latest research has found that an unborn baby is definitely aware of pain by 24 weeks, and possibly aware as early as 20 weeks.
And professor of neurobiology and anatomy Maureen L. Condic recently presented scientific evidence concerning the ability of unborn children to experience pain at a U.S. House subcommittee. I offer here a few excerpts from her written testimony: “To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development. There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.
By the time that a baby has been in utero for one month, blood is pumping around the body. In the second month, facial features develop, including the growth of ears, eyes, arms, legs, toes, and fingers. At six weeks, the baby’s brain, spinal cord, and central nervous system are all pretty well formed — in outline at least. By the two-month mark, sensory organs begin to develop and bone replaces cartilage.
Three months in, arms, hands, fingers, feet, and toes are fully formed, and the baby can grab with its fists as well as open and close its mouth. Teeth are on their way, as are reproductive organs. In month four, the baby is fully formed, and eyelids, eyebrows, eyelashes, nails, and hair develop. At this point, a baby can suck his thumb, yawn, hiccup, stretch, and make faces. At 18 weeks, the baby can move around, and experience REM sleep, including dreams. At 20 weeks, some studies show, it can recognize its mother’s voice.
Amazing how these "none living beings" experience so much and you obviously do no t know that foetus is Latin for baby.
You want to know what is amazing to me?
You totally disregard that this god you believe in is the biggest abortionist of all.
God creates a baby, implants a soul, and yet 1 out of 5 fertilized eggs make it to the birth stage.
I'm amazed at your ability to compartmentalize.
God provides a soul to a baby, yet 4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage.
No biggie right?
Contrast this with a women deciding that she does not want to go through with her attempt at having a child. Keep in mind, there is no guarantee that the fetus will come to term, the odds are actually against it happening.
This gets you riled up?!?!?!
I think removing the plank in your eye should be applied here IMO.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Post #107
[Replying to post 104 by Goat]
And you saying it is not a baby does not make it not a baby.
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Genesis 1:28 God gave them his blessing and said: Have a lot of children! Fill the earth with people and bring it under your control. Rule over the fish in the ocean, the birds in the sky, and every animal on the earth.
.You do realize that putting words in bold does not make in any more true
And you saying it is not a baby does not make it not a baby.
And the word foetus is Latin for baby. Interesting isn't it that those who perform the abortions says that every abortion kills a baby. They didn't say every abortion kills a foetus. I wonder why? Perhaps they know more than you do. When I can work it out, I will post some photos of babies that have been aborted. They have heads, hands, bodies, arms, legs feet, eyes, nose, mouth. You know all those things that babies have.It is not a baby, it's a fetus.
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Genesis 1:28 God gave them his blessing and said: Have a lot of children! Fill the earth with people and bring it under your control. Rule over the fish in the ocean, the birds in the sky, and every animal on the earth.
Last edited by wotsupdoc on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #108
[Replying to post 105 by Clownboat]
What I do remember saying is that research shows that what is BEST FOR THE CHILD is to have a biological married mum and dad.
Now, I did not say that. I said the research shows which in this case is overwhelming.
That means if a biological mum and dad who are married is the best outcome for children, it stands to reason that two homosexuals ARE NOT the best outcome for a child.
Now to me that sounds very logical, but I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings by stating the truth.
if you cannot handle the truth, then you will have to create your own version of it to appeal to your sense of what is right and wrong. And as we know today, the more we call right wrong and wrong right, we end up creating a notion of truth that is anything but the truth.
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John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father.
Did I? Show me where.You are adding your spin that homosexuals are not good parents. I think all the good homosexual parents would be insulted.
What I do remember saying is that research shows that what is BEST FOR THE CHILD is to have a biological married mum and dad.
Now, I did not say that. I said the research shows which in this case is overwhelming.
That means if a biological mum and dad who are married is the best outcome for children, it stands to reason that two homosexuals ARE NOT the best outcome for a child.
Now to me that sounds very logical, but I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings by stating the truth.
if you cannot handle the truth, then you will have to create your own version of it to appeal to your sense of what is right and wrong. And as we know today, the more we call right wrong and wrong right, we end up creating a notion of truth that is anything but the truth.
========================================================================================================
John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father.
Last edited by wotsupdoc on Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #109
[Replying to post 106 by Clownboat]
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Hebrews 11:6 But without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him.
More spin.You want to know what is amazing to me?
You totally disregard that this god you believe in is the biggest abortionist of all.
==============================================================================================================
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him.
Last edited by wotsupdoc on Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #110
[Replying to post 106 by Clownboat]
Now as I understand it, When God created Adam and Eve they were perfect. When they sinned, it brought about decay and degradation and this has been going on for 6,000 years. The scripture describes it as the earth "groaning."
In Adam's day and those following people lived up to 930 years, because the rot had not set in at that stage as its destructive power was very gradual.
Now that we are not far from the end times, the destruction of planet earth is almost total. In its finality it will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth will take its place.
The fact that an embryo dies is the result of sin, not God. Therefore it means that man is responsible for this fact, not God, because of their sin.
Mind you, being an atheist, I do not expect you to understand this or accept it but then, that is your problem, not mine.
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Romans 8:22 We know that all creation is still groaning and is in pain, like a woman about to give birth.
That is your take on things but that is to be expected as all atheists are not happy unless they are finding something to criticise God for.I'm amazed at your ability to compartmentalize.
God provides a soul to a baby, yet 4 out of 5 don't make it to the birth stage.
No biggie right?
Now as I understand it, When God created Adam and Eve they were perfect. When they sinned, it brought about decay and degradation and this has been going on for 6,000 years. The scripture describes it as the earth "groaning."
In Adam's day and those following people lived up to 930 years, because the rot had not set in at that stage as its destructive power was very gradual.
Now that we are not far from the end times, the destruction of planet earth is almost total. In its finality it will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth will take its place.
The fact that an embryo dies is the result of sin, not God. Therefore it means that man is responsible for this fact, not God, because of their sin.
Mind you, being an atheist, I do not expect you to understand this or accept it but then, that is your problem, not mine.
========================================================================================================
Romans 8:22 We know that all creation is still groaning and is in pain, like a woman about to give birth.
Last edited by wotsupdoc on Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
