Are all white people guilty of slavery?

[jb41908]

Are all white people guilty of slavery because some white people owned slaves? Is collective guilt just, wise, or merciful?

How is it different than the notion that all people who ever exist being guilty of original sin?

[jb41908]

Catholics are Christians, last I checked.

Babies and folks who never heard of God or Jesus: straight to Hell.

Fair, wise, just?

[onewithhim]

Are all white people guilty of slavery because some white people owned slaves? Is collective guilt just, wise, or merciful?

How is it different than the notion that all people who ever exist being guilty of original sin?

No all white people are not guilty of slavery, just like not all Jews are guilty of killing Jesus.

All people who have existed are not guilty of what Adam did to bring sin and death upon the human race. That is why Jesus came here and died for us, because we couldn't help what Adam did.

All humans are AFFECTED by what Adam did because we all came from him; he is our ancestor; his DNA would be passed down to us. In that way we cannot escape the judgment he received for turning his back on God and demanding to run his own life without God's rules. When he lost his perfection and was slated to die, all of his children would be imperfect as well, and would eventually die. That's the way human geneology works.

[onewithhim]

The slavery example is an example of collective guilt.

Original Sin is a Christian doctrine of collective guilt holding all mankind guilty of Adam’s original Sin in the Garden.

How is that just, fair, or wise?

It's not, and that is not how God views it. All mankind is NOT guilty, and that is why God planned an out for us. All we have to do is accept Jesus' act of redemption for us.

Most "Christian doctrine" is erroneous. It doesn't even harmonize with the Bible.

[onewithhim]

The slavery example is an example of collective guilt.

Original Sin is a Christian doctrine of collective guilt holding all mankind guilty of Adam’s original Sin in the Garden.

How is that just, fair, or wise?

I don't know if Christians have to believe the doctrine of original sin. We are guilty of our own sins.

RESPONSE: Catholics do. And if we didn't have that belief, the Immaculate Conception infallible teaching has to be seriously modified or deleted.

Incidentally, I assume you know that the Catholic Church's teaching is that if infants die before baptism they have to spend eternity in hell because they have the guilt of Adam's sin. It is sometimes called the "stain of Original Sin."

And that is a very warped way of explaining the Scriptures. What person in his right mind would condemn a baby to "hell" who didn't know his right hand from his left?

Such a teaching is sick. I guess a teaching like that ensures that the masses of people will pay for the ceremony of baptism for their child! Put out the money and you're OK! Never mind that Jesus demonstrated baptism as being done by an adult. The Church has its ways of laying guilt onto people real thick and heavy, and getting riches as a result.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by jb41908]

Jehovah's Witnesses have the correct understanding of the consequences of "the original sin" in that it is not about collective guilt its about inherited imperfection.

• It is often said: "nobody's perfect". This is true, the bible simply explains WHY the adage, (which I have heard even atheists admit), is a sad reality. When people say "nobody's perfect" they don't realize they are in fact saying in biblical terms "We are all imperfect" meaning "Everybody sins" . Sin is biblically just another way of saying "not perfect".

It is wrong to say we are all guilty of Adam's sin (we are not) but we all suffer the consequences of that sin, and that, without Jesus, is totally inescapable.

JW

RESPONSE: Lets see if I am following your argument. A child inherits the guilt of Adam's original sin and suffers the consequences of that sin.

And this was directed by a God who is just and loving?

Do recognize any conflict in this type of argument?

Don't you know about Jesus' redemptive act? Do you realize that his death means that we don't have to die eternally? Do you know anything about the Resurrection? Because Jesus was faithful to death, we have the guarantee of being brought back to life if we die. Because of him we don't have to remain under condemnation of eternal death.

[onewithhim]

Catholics are Christians, last I checked.

Babies and folks who never heard of God or Jesus: straight to Hell.

Fair, wise, just?

Ridiculous, and not a Bible teaching.

[dianaiad]

The slavery example is an example of collective guilt.

Original Sin is a Christian doctrine of collective guilt holding all mankind guilty of Adam’s original Sin in the Garden.

How is that just, fair, or wise?

I don't know if Christians have to believe the doctrine of original sin. We are guilty of our own sins.

RESPONSE: Catholics do. And if we didn't have that belief, the Immaculate Conception infallible teaching has to be seriously modified or deleted.

Incidentally, I assume you know that the Catholic Church's teaching is that if infants die before baptism they have to spend eternity in hell because they have the guilt of Adam's sin. It is sometimes called the "stain of Original Sin."

"original sin" is a concept that is shared by a whole bunch of Christian belief systems. (Mine is not one of them, btw) It's not simply Catholics who believe in it. I understand that the concept of 'limbo' was originated for those infants who died without baptism, not being old enough to commit their own sins. "Limbo" is not heaven...but it's not hell, either.

I also understand that this idea of "Limbo" has changed, or been rejected, or something, by the church authorities. I honestly can't remember what, except that it has been repudiated in some way.

Most Christian belief systems, I understand, don't want to 'go there' any more, and those who insist that baptism is required and who practice infant baptism have, in general, a far less condemnatory view of what happens to infants who die before they can be baptized: a sort of 'God is merciful and He will take care of them" idea.

My own has always taught that children who die before they reach the 'age of accountability" (knowing right from wrong at least most of the time) go to heaven. That age may vary according to the individual, of course, but we start baptizing kids when they are around eight.

If I am incorrect about the "Limbo" thing, please correct me.

[dianaiad]

Are all white people guilty of slavery because some white people owned slaves?

I have met a few people who think so, actually. Not many, true, but a few.

Is collective guilt just, wise, or merciful?

I don't think so, but then I don't believe in "Original Sin," either.

How is it different than the notion that all people who ever exist being guilty of original sin?

Your argument is logical, but given that ARE those who believe that all white people are guilty of slavery because some white people have owned slaves, not everybody will follow your logic.

[bluethread]

Are all white people guilty of slavery because some white people owned slaves? Is collective guilt just, wise, or merciful?

How is it different than the notion that all people who ever exist being guilty of original sin?

The difference is that one is an activity and the other is a proclivity. One is not guilty of the sin's of one's father, but one does carry some of the genetic tendencies of one's father. There is no genetic tendency to being a slave holder, but there is a genetic tendency to speculating on creative lifestyles.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 1 by jb41908]

Jehovah's Witnesses have the correct understanding of the consequences of "the original sin" in that it is not about collective guilt its about inherited imperfection.

• It is often said: "nobody's perfect". This is true, the bible simply explains WHY the adage, (which I have heard even atheists admit), is a sad reality. When people say "nobody's perfect" they don't realize they are in fact saying in biblical terms "We are all imperfect" meaning "Everybody sins" . Sin is biblically just another way of saying "not perfect".

It is wrong to say we are all guilty of Adam's sin (we are not) but we all suffer the consequences of that sin, and that, without Jesus, is totally inescapable.

JW

Nothing like punishment that I don't deserve....