The Problem With A Mormon President?

[Kuan]

This isnt a big topic but I am curious as to why so many people are scared of a mormon president? Is there a legit reason or is it just fear of a "cult?"

[Kuan]

This isnt a big topic but I am curious as to why so many people are scared of a mormon president? Is there a legit reason or is it just fear of a "cult?"

I wasn't aware there were so many people scared as you report. Where are you gathering this info from? Also, I would imagine concern over getting a cult figure into the Whitehouse would also have some legitimacy to it. For example, I would probably never have voted for a David Koresh or Jim Jones-like figure simply because of my perception of their religious background. Isn't that legit?

The last election was huge in Utah because most mormons were excited about having some political power for a change. There were also a lot of arguments in my high school between non-mormons and mormons. Plus all of that the news always had a topic about "Romneys Religion."

[McCulloch]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

[Kuan]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

Interesting fact there.

[nygreenguy]

I wasn't aware there were so many people scared as you report. Where are you gathering this info from?

There were all sort of polls last election cycle talking about this.

Also, I would imagine concern over getting a cult figure into the Whitehouse would also have some legitimacy to it. For example, I would probably never have voted for a David Koresh or Jim Jones-like figure simply because of my perception of their religious background. Isn't that legit?

It would, however to call the CoLDS a cult is pushing it. Its just an ad hom attack.

[sleepyhead]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

Abraham Lincoln had seances in the white house. FDR invited Edgar Cayce to give him a psychic reading.

With regards to voting for a mormon I would provided he wasn't a republican.

[TheLibertarian]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

Abraham Lincoln had seances in the white house. FDR invited Edgar Cayce to give him a psychic reading.

And Nancy Reagan was huge into astrology, scheduling Ronald's appearances around what Joan Quigley, her diviner, told her. As I recall this caused quite the stir among his Evangelical base.

[Kuan]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

Abraham Lincoln had seances in the white house. FDR invited Edgar Cayce to give him a psychic reading.

With regards to voting for a mormon I would provided he wasn't a republican.

A democratic mormon...thats as common as ice in a desert....

[TheLibertarian]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

Abraham Lincoln had seances in the white house. FDR invited Edgar Cayce to give him a psychic reading.

With regards to voting for a mormon I would provided he wasn't a republican.

A democratic mormon...thats as common as ice in a desert....

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this is something someone else posted on another message forum on just this subject. Maybe you could shed some light on it:

Utah's shift towards the Republican Party had far more to do with posturing and image than it did with policy. Since the presidency of David O. McKay the goal of the LDS church has been to become as American as possible; more American than Americans.

With the rise of identity politics in the 1960's, people began to associate themselves with their particular "group". Diaspora communities (African Americans, Italians, Irish-Americans, Jews, and a host of other more recent immigrants) could identify with an overseas community from which they could draw traditions and customs. Their history was wrapped up in a narrative that reached back further than the United States itself. Although many of these groups voted Democratic before, increasingly after the 1960s they began to see the Democrats as protecting their interests.

The Mormons were a homegrown subculture, however they were often seen as being un-American due to their history of isolation(which, ironically, was a result of their persecution within the U.S.). In the 1950's the LDS leadership dramatically changed their outlook in order to insure their survival as a group. For the most part the new leadership was removed from the pre-statehood days when there was mass antipathy towards the American government. In order to push their members into the mainstream they embarked on a modernization process: beards, which had been ubiquitous before due to missionaries growing them in order to appear older, became frowned upon, missionary activity was increased dramatically, and converts were discouraged from moving to the inter-mountain West upon becoming members. Prior to the late 60s the Democratic Party had yet to embrace the counter-culture and identity groups, and so Mormon voting patterns weren't effected; Mormons voted their politics, without any input from the leadership.

During and after the mid to late 60s though, Mormons were beginning to find it hard to locate their place in an American society that was rapidly changing. They didn't have an overseas community to identify with, they were just Americans. Republicans positioned themselves as the party of traditional America(religious devotion, the family, and traditions such as reliance on non-governmental structures). To become mainstream most Mormons felt they had to ally themselves with the conservative movement; they didn't want to be viewed as being the same as the counter culture or immigrants as they'd been seen as "different" for so long and it hadn't worked out for them. It was a rejection of their uniqueness in a play for survival. (Now there was also a lot of internal politics within the church structure going on at this time, which I could go into further if you wanted, but I'm providing a more broad picture.)

This, in my opinion, was a mistake in some ways but not in others. It was based in the notion that they wouldn't be accepted for being different, which is almost kind of antiquated and outdated, but at the same time we see that it still rings true. Now whether modern bigotry towards Mormons is more a result of their differences from the mainstream, or as a result of their alliance with more conservative forms of Christianity, is still kind of an open question. Undoubtedly from their uneasy allies on the right we see more of the former, and from the left we see more of the latter. Mormons, in the conventional sense, aren't nearly as conservative as most evangelicals. They don't view devotion to their church in the same way non-Mormons do. When Mormons are religious, that means they're committed to a culture, way of life, and family structure; it doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with theology. Mormons are generally more liberal on the issue of abortion than evangelicals and definitely more liberal than the official stance of the RCC(the LDS church is officially pro-stem cell research, and has no opposition to birth control), aren't young earth creationists(and in fact their theology supports something similar to the big bang theory), and have traditionally been far more receptive to female empowerment(one of the first states to have suffrage, have always encouraged education for women, and have been way more sexually open, although not permissive obviously, than other traditional Christian groups). Liberal critics of the Church, in my mind, put far too much weight on theological quirks within Mormon doctrine that don't really have much to do with how Mormons live their lives at all. I think a lot of the Church's opposition to the ERA was an effort to curry favor with the conservative movement in general, and it's one of the things I really hold against the Church. Most of their opposition to SS marriage initiatives has been a similar attempt, in my opinion, another which I disagree with.

Utah is in a very conservative part of country, regardless of religion, so that comes into play as well and people often don't acknowledge that. Mormons aren't a huge percentage of the population in Wyoming, which is still as conservative. People look at Utah and I think they place way too much emphasis on the Church's influence. Undoubtedly Mormons in Utah are more Republican than non-Mormons, but that has a lot to do with the identity politics of being a minority in the state for non-members. Most non-Mormons in Utah are Hispanic Catholics, evangelicals, or non-religious. Funnily enough, a lot of the evangelicals in Utah are Democrats, a main reason being that they are a minority and the majority, a majority they oppose vociferously, is generally Republican. Hispanics and non-religious people tend to be Democrats anyway. So when someone looks at the political demographics in Utah and they see that the Mormons are voting Republican and everyone else is voting Democrat, they make the mistake of thinking that the Church is somehow telling people how to vote. In reality, it is the non-Mormons who are generally voting according to religion; merely their opposition to one.

I've spent a lot of time with Mormons in the South, and more often than not they're Democrats, because they have to put up with the evangelical establishment in the Bible Belt and feel excluded from it. Another factor in Mormons voting Republican outside of the inter-mountain West, however, is income. The LDS Church places a HUGE emphasis on education; most white Mormons are educated. The culture of the Church encourages people into careers in engineering and the sciences. They tend to be fairly upper middle class because of this.

To simplify, Mormons, because of their ostracization among mainstream sects, adhere more closely to whatever major Party is the most 'American' at any given time.

[Kuan]

It is just my opinion, but I would prefer a political leader with no invisible friends.

Im sorry but what do you mean by that statement?

We had a Prime Minister during World War II who consulted his dead mom.
William Lyon Mackenzie King.
Somehow, he is still considered to have been one of our best. He did have the sense to keep his invisible friends and relatives a secret.

Abraham Lincoln had seances in the white house. FDR invited Edgar Cayce to give him a psychic reading.

With regards to voting for a mormon I would provided he wasn't a republican.

A democratic mormon...thats as common as ice in a desert....

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this is something someone else posted on another message forum on just this subject. Maybe you could shed some light on it:

Utah's shift towards the Republican Party had far more to do with posturing and image than it did with policy. Since the presidency of David O. McKay the goal of the LDS church has been to become as American as possible; more American than Americans.

With the rise of identity politics in the 1960's, people began to associate themselves with their particular "group". Diaspora communities (African Americans, Italians, Irish-Americans, Jews, and a host of other more recent immigrants) could identify with an overseas community from which they could draw traditions and customs. Their history was wrapped up in a narrative that reached back further than the United States itself. Although many of these groups voted Democratic before, increasingly after the 1960s they began to see the Democrats as protecting their interests.

The Mormons were a homegrown subculture, however they were often seen as being un-American due to their history of isolation(which, ironically, was a result of their persecution within the U.S.). In the 1950's the LDS leadership dramatically changed their outlook in order to insure their survival as a group. For the most part the new leadership was removed from the pre-statehood days when there was mass antipathy towards the American government. In order to push their members into the mainstream they embarked on a modernization process: beards, which had been ubiquitous before due to missionaries growing them in order to appear older, became frowned upon, missionary activity was increased dramatically, and converts were discouraged from moving to the inter-mountain West upon becoming members. Prior to the late 60s the Democratic Party had yet to embrace the counter-culture and identity groups, and so Mormon voting patterns weren't effected; Mormons voted their politics, without any input from the leadership.

During and after the mid to late 60s though, Mormons were beginning to find it hard to locate their place in an American society that was rapidly changing. They didn't have an overseas community to identify with, they were just Americans. Republicans positioned themselves as the party of traditional America(religious devotion, the family, and traditions such as reliance on non-governmental structures). To become mainstream most Mormons felt they had to ally themselves with the conservative movement; they didn't want to be viewed as being the same as the counter culture or immigrants as they'd been seen as "different" for so long and it hadn't worked out for them. It was a rejection of their uniqueness in a play for survival. (Now there was also a lot of internal politics within the church structure going on at this time, which I could go into further if you wanted, but I'm providing a more broad picture.)

This, in my opinion, was a mistake in some ways but not in others. It was based in the notion that they wouldn't be accepted for being different, which is almost kind of antiquated and outdated, but at the same time we see that it still rings true. Now whether modern bigotry towards Mormons is more a result of their differences from the mainstream, or as a result of their alliance with more conservative forms of Christianity, is still kind of an open question. Undoubtedly from their uneasy allies on the right we see more of the former, and from the left we see more of the latter. Mormons, in the conventional sense, aren't nearly as conservative as most evangelicals. They don't view devotion to their church in the same way non-Mormons do. When Mormons are religious, that means they're committed to a culture, way of life, and family structure; it doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with theology. Mormons are generally more liberal on the issue of abortion than evangelicals and definitely more liberal than the official stance of the RCC(the LDS church is officially pro-stem cell research, and has no opposition to birth control), aren't young earth creationists(and in fact their theology supports something similar to the big bang theory), and have traditionally been far more receptive to female empowerment(one of the first states to have suffrage, have always encouraged education for women, and have been way more sexually open, although not permissive obviously, than other traditional Christian groups). Liberal critics of the Church, in my mind, put far too much weight on theological quirks within Mormon doctrine that don't really have much to do with how Mormons live their lives at all. I think a lot of the Church's opposition to the ERA was an effort to curry favor with the conservative movement in general, and it's one of the things I really hold against the Church. Most of their opposition to SS marriage initiatives has been a similar attempt, in my opinion, another which I disagree with.

Utah is in a very conservative part of country, regardless of religion, so that comes into play as well and people often don't acknowledge that. Mormons aren't a huge percentage of the population in Wyoming, which is still as conservative. People look at Utah and I think they place way too much emphasis on the Church's influence. Undoubtedly Mormons in Utah are more Republican than non-Mormons, but that has a lot to do with the identity politics of being a minority in the state for non-members. Most non-Mormons in Utah are Hispanic Catholics, evangelicals, or non-religious. Funnily enough, a lot of the evangelicals in Utah are Democrats, a main reason being that they are a minority and the majority, a majority they oppose vociferously, is generally Republican. Hispanics and non-religious people tend to be Democrats anyway. So when someone looks at the political demographics in Utah and they see that the Mormons are voting Republican and everyone else is voting Democrat, they make the mistake of thinking that the Church is somehow telling people how to vote. In reality, it is the non-Mormons who are generally voting according to religion; merely their opposition to one.

I've spent a lot of time with Mormons in the South, and more often than not they're Democrats, because they have to put up with the evangelical establishment in the Bible Belt and feel excluded from it. Another factor in Mormons voting Republican outside of the inter-mountain West, however, is income. The LDS Church places a HUGE emphasis on education; most white Mormons are educated. The culture of the Church encourages people into careers in engineering and the sciences. They tend to be fairly upper middle class because of this.

To simplify, Mormons, because of their ostracization among mainstream sects, adhere more closely to whatever major Party is the most 'American' at any given time.

It was quite accurate except for your statement. I am registered as a republican but when it comes to SS marriage and abortion I find myself to be more liberal. We also believe that science and religion can prove each other. For example a famous mormon scientist, Henry Eyering. Our church stays out of politics and actualy tells us to vote for what we believe. Our theology actualy does work with scientific models and theories such as the big bang theory. In a way we might have adhered more closely to conservatives in the past because they were more "American" but I would say that is false now. The comment about us usually being upper middle class I guess is true...I have heard a lot of jokes about it actually. There was even a south park episode where they joked about it. I also think we tend to be very nice people, but im mormon and were all nice to each other, a non-mormon would have to fill that in, whether its true or false. Umm, I dont know if im missing anything on this. If I am let me know and ill address it. If any other fellow mormons disagree with me, let me know.

[nygreenguy]

A democratic mormon...thats as common as ice in a desert....

All my mormon friends here in syracuse are borderline socialists.