On The Pledge Of Allegience

[JoeyKnothead]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge? The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation. Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

Why are we even making children say the pledge in the first place? Why should a student who is not from this country be forced to pledge themselves to it? More to the point, why should any child be forced to say it? It all feels a bit too much like brainwashing to me.

[JoeyKnothead]

Why are we even making children say the pledge in the first place? Why should a student who is not from this country be forced to pledge themselves to it? More to the point, why should any child be forced to say it? It all feels a bit too much like brainwashing to me.

Since this is a religious debate forum, I framed the question as such. I do agree with your position though. I always kinda thought it funny people would accept any oath, since all you gotta do is say it and not even bother believing it.

I don't have the original article to point to but what brought it up is this:

A school has kids go around gathering up students who wanna say the oath. The kids go to some location and say the oath. Well then along comes someone who starts making the whole (small) school go to a central location. Those who wanna say the pledge can say it, those who don't, don't hafta. Seems the argument boils down to:
If we do it in individual classrooms, those that don't wanna pledge could be ostracized. So the solution is gathering up the whole danged school, and the logic is there would be less ostracizing going on.

[Cephus]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge? The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation. Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

Because the loony-toon McCarthyists thought that them evil commies couldn't say the word "God" so it was a means of ferreting them out of their evil warrens. The same was true of sticking "In God We Trust" on the currency. Put "God" on the money and the commies can't spend it.

Yes, they were that stupid.

[Cathar1950]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge? The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation. Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

Because the loony-toon McCarthyists thought that them evil commies couldn't say the word "God" so it was a means of ferreting them out of their evil warrens. The same was true of sticking "In God We Trust" on the currency. Put "God" on the money and the commies can't spend it.

Yes, they were that stupid.

That is rather stupid.
If someone didn't believed in God why would they not spend the money?
It is just money.
It seems it would be the Christians that would have the problem with spending the money because they put God on it.
Then again not all communists are atheists, take the Hutterites.
I wonder how much the extra ink costs to put that on our money?

I don't even know why we should pledge allegiance to the flag, after all it is a symbol. Pledge allegiance to our constitution would be good enough I would think and it might be worth remembering.

[Bio-logical]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge?

The original pledge did not contain the words, they were added in 1962 as stated before, in an effort by the Catholic group the Knights of Columbus to show the Godless Commies we were a Christian Nation. Since then, they have been left in due to objections from the religious right against their removal and also with appeals to tradition and ignorance to the masses claiming it has always been there so we should just leave it.

That being said, the reason it is so necessary to leave it in the pledge is because the majority of our country has some sort of faith in God, and if you notice the pledge is not specific as to which God it refers. This allows the pledge to take on the role of a prayer in the minds of the religious masses, which makes it more binding in their dogmatically inclined psyches. Those who support the pledge in its current practice of having children recite it daily are the same people who supprt indoctrinating their children in Sunday Schools from an early age.

The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation.

This begs the question, "when was the pledge last used as a way for people to actually pledge support to their nation?"

I am a strong supporter of such a use; an actual pledge[/i] of allegiance to your country. Unfortunately, the pledge of the united states is no right of passage, no initiation into citizenship. Instead, it is used as a quick recitation to improve solidarity in children - albeit a more noble cause than its original purpose as it was written: to help sell flags.

The only way the question posed would actually be an issue would be if we were taught the pledge and the importance of the meaning behind it as we approached our 18th birthdays, at which point we ceremoniously recited the pledge and accepted our role as adult citizens of the country with all the rights and responsibilities associated with it.

Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

Again, this is to improve solidarity of those reciting it. Calling us indivisible is meant to be a self-fulfilling prophesy, and it often works. Almost every person feels more patriotic after reciting the pledge, seeing a veteran talk about the flag or hearing the national anthem... that is what they are for... okay, maybe not the veterans but the other two.

Long story short here is that the reason we have the pledge and the reason it contains the words it does is because it helps control those who have the faith in such statements and who are likely to see such a thing as a fulcrum upon which we lift ourselves as a country. The pledge is a tool to keep us in line, easily compared to other such rote statements as the lord's prayer or grace.


On a side note, Hi!

Tis is my first post here but I hope to continue on this site for many moons, so I look forward to meeting all of you.

[McCulloch]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge? The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation. Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

Between 1924 and 1954, the Pledge of Allegiance was worded:

• I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

In 1954, during the McCarthy era and communism scare, Congress passed a bill, which was signed into law, to add the words "under God." The current Pledge reads:

• I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

No doubt that the specter of godless communism has much to do with this change. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists. Eisenhower inaugurated the Washington prayer breakfast. Congress created a prayer room in the Capitol. In 1955, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it replaced the nation's official motto, "E Pluribus Unum" with this religious phrase.

Clearly, the intent of these measures were to reverse the secularism established in the Constitution. According to speeches in the House, the hope was to "acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon the Creator [and] deny the atheistic and materialistic concept of communism." In signing the bill on June 14, 1954, Flag Day, Eisenhower openly acknowledged the fact that from then on, "millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."

[kayky]

Welcome, Bio-Logical.

I do think the words "under God" should be removed from the pledge. A belief in God has nothing to do with allegiance to one's country. However, I see nothing wrong in having the pledge recited in schools. It can help develop a civic awareness in young children.

[Bio-logical]

Welcome, Bio-Logical.

I do think the words "under God" should be removed from the pledge. A belief in God has nothing to do with allegiance to one's country. However, I see nothing wrong in having the pledge recited in schools. It can help develop a civic awareness in young children.

I would agree with this if students were actually taught what the pledge is and what it means. Unfortunately most kids have o idea what they are saying - as a matter of fact most adults don't either. As a quick experiment if you are bored some day ask a set of random adults what the pledge actually says and what you are doing by reciting it. I have done this for a class project with college students as subjects and I was shocked how few people actually understood that the pledge of allegiance was a pledge of allegiance! Personal examination of rote phrases such as the pledge are rare when they are taught to you as children.

Another quick demonstration of this - nursery rhymes. Go back and actually re-read some old nursery rhymes and childrens' songs with attention to what they actually say. Most are pretty violent or even scary when you think about what they are saying.

rock-a-bye baby on the tree tops
when the wind blows that cradle will rock
when the bough breaks the cradle will fall
and down will come baby, cradle and all

[cnorman18]

Since I think that most people don't pay much attention to these phrases, I tend to regard them as a non-issue. Most people reciting the Pledge are thinking about the cute girl in the next row, the math quiz they're about to take, or who's coming up to bat first; and you don't often see people meditating on the words on their currency or coins, either. It's all pro forma, and those who protest merely call attention to it.

I'm a Jew, and I've been in attendance at any number of public events where the invocation was given in the name of Jesus Christ or the Trinity. So what? I'm not about to jump up and holler about how offended I am. I live in a majority-Christian nation, and it's a little silly for me to try to make everyone pretend that isn't so.

I think we non-Christians ought to pick our battles more carefully. Banning gay marriage on religious grounds is important; what's printed on the nickel isn't. What if I think Jefferson isn't worthy of respect because he was a slaveowner? What do I do, use stacks of pennies instead? Give me a break. Everything doesn't have to be of hugely political, ideological, or religious significance.

Personally, I savor the irony of our putting "In God We Trust" on the thing we really DO trust in. Maybe that's just the American way of indicating that money is our god.