Proof The Quran Is True

[JoeyKnothead]

Let's examine the Quran and see if it can be proven to be the actual word of Allah, or prove the existence of Allah.

muhammad rasullah has offered some evidence, that if proven correct, to me at least would be very powerful proof for the Quran's claims...

So what you are searching for is proof that the knowledge in the quran man could not have come up with himself. Okay I will consent to that.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
How could this have been known at the time of the prophet over 1400 years ago? It is there and science has proven this a a fact. So now you have to answer the question in a reasonable and logical way with proof as to where else this knowledge could've come from? considering that knowone knew this to be true.
The link is given and you can read more about it yourself...

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html
_________________
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem "In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful"

[JoeyKnothead]

1- Who in this 'moosiaaoona', is this We Who? Allah, Muhammad, or humans in general?
2- "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This could be taken several ways, how are we to know it means the actual expansion of the universe, and not like say knowledge, or finding new lands?

I agree that this, if accurate, is powerful information. If I could get some clarification on the above we can go from there.

I accept the information in the link as accurate, if dependent on interpretation. I still have my questions above. If the above is accurate, I will provisionally accept it, and we can look at a few more proofs. I'm not letting you 'off the hook' with just one proof, though if correct it sure does seem powerful.

[Goat]

So what you are searching for is proof that the knowledge in the quran man could not have come up with himself. Okay I will consent to that.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
How could this have been known at the time of the prophet over 1400 years ago? It is there and science has proven this a a fact. So now you have to answer the question in a reasonable and logical way with proof as to where else this knowledge could've come from? considering that knowone knew this to be true.
The link is given and you can read more about it yourself...

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html

There are some problems with that.

1) The translation above is mistaken or at best forced. Better translations of the last clause are "we are the ones who enrich it" (Pangloss 2003) or "we it is who made the vast extent" (Pickthall n.d.).

2) The following verse (51:48) says, "And the earth We have laid out." Suras 51:47-48 appear to be a rough translation of Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it. . . ." If divine origin is imputed on the basis of these verses, credit should go to the Bible, not the Qur'an

3) The expansion interpretation was not noticed until after the expansion of the universe was well known through scientific observations. If Allah meant the Qur'an to indicate an expanding universe, the verse indicates that He was not competent to communicate clearly.


Additional information debunking a lot of quran and science claims can be found at http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/avij ... iracle.htm


In other words, this is an out of context mistranslation to try to prove a point.

[JoeyKnothead]

He didn't want to defend it I guess.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

You can find plenty of threads and sites like the above that debunk so–called ‘science’ of the Qur’ân and Ahadith. Suffice it to say people tend to twist the meaning of their scriptures to accommodate current scientific thinking. Hence why some muslims even claim that the Qur’ân endorses evolution (up to a point), while others decry it.

According to a woman I tried debating on a muslim forum, the Qur’ân is true because atheist scientists have gaps in our current knowledge. OK, she didn’t put it like that, but pointed out we didn’t know what sparked life. I did my sarcastic GODDIDIT! in response, to which she replied that not just god, but her allah did it. So to take that to its logical conclusion, we don’t know exactly what caused the first spark of life (could have been chance), therefore allah did it, therefore this makes Muhammad and the Qur’ân correct.

Or have I fallen afoul of the fallacy of the masked man?

[JoeyKnothead]

Yeah, you'd think if the evidence was so good he'da come and showed us. Guess he's not so convinced now.

[muhammad rasullah]

1- Who in this 'moosiaaoona', is this We Who? Allah, Muhammad, or humans in general?
2- "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This could be taken several ways, how are we to know it means the actual expansion of the universe, and not like say knowledge, or finding new lands?

I agree that this, if accurate, is powerful information. If I could get some clarification on the above we can go from there.

I accept the information in the link as accurate, if dependent on interpretation. I still have my questions above. If the above is accurate, I will provisionally accept it, and we can look at a few more proofs. I'm not letting you 'off the hook' with just one proof, though if correct it sure does seem powerful.

The word "We" in the quranic verse and throughout the quran is not used to imply more than one person when Allah is using the "We" in the quran this is showing his sovereignty Known as the Royal we.
Royal we
n. The first-person plural pronoun used by a sovereign in formal address to refer to himself or herself.
Dictionary.com
There are no animals, or people or Muhammad involved. Only Allah.
Also the verse above says "heaven" not "sky". And expand means expand I don't know what other way to explain that. It isn't talking about knowledge or earth or land. If you re-read it it explains the usage of the word heaven in the verse is referring to space and the wider universe.

[Goat]

1- Who in this 'moosiaaoona', is this We Who? Allah, Muhammad, or humans in general?
2- "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This could be taken several ways, how are we to know it means the actual expansion of the universe, and not like say knowledge, or finding new lands?

I agree that this, if accurate, is powerful information. If I could get some clarification on the above we can go from there.

I accept the information in the link as accurate, if dependent on interpretation. I still have my questions above. If the above is accurate, I will provisionally accept it, and we can look at a few more proofs. I'm not letting you 'off the hook' with just one proof, though if correct it sure does seem powerful.

The word "We" in the quranic verse and throughout the quran is not used to imply more than one person when Allah is using the "We" in the quran this is showing his sovereignty Known as the Royal we.
Royal we
n. The first-person plural pronoun used by a sovereign in formal address to refer to himself or herself.
Dictionary.com
There are no animals, or people or Muhammad involved. Only Allah.
Also the verse above says "heaven" not "sky". And expand means expand I don't know what other way to explain that. It isn't talking about knowledge or earth or land. If you re-read it it explains the usage of the word heaven in the verse is referring to space and the wider universe.

This does not answer the critisims about the claim. Maybe you could read and actually respond to the analysis of the claim?

[muhammad rasullah]

So what you are searching for is proof that the knowledge in the quran man could not have come up with himself. Okay I will consent to that.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
How could this have been known at the time of the prophet over 1400 years ago? It is there and science has proven this a a fact. So now you have to answer the question in a reasonable and logical way with proof as to where else this knowledge could've come from? considering that knowone knew this to be true.
The link is given and you can read more about it yourself...

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html

There are some problems with that.

1) The translation above is mistaken or at best forced. Better translations of the last clause are "we are the ones who enrich it" (Pangloss 2003) or "we it is who made the vast extent" (Pickthall n.d.).

2) The following verse (51:48) says, "And the earth We have laid out." Suras 51:47-48 appear to be a rough translation of Isaiah 42:5: "Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and what comes from it. . . ." If divine origin is imputed on the basis of these verses, credit should go to the Bible, not the Qur'an

3) The expansion interpretation was not noticed until after the expansion of the universe was well known through scientific observations. If Allah meant the Qur'an to indicate an expanding universe, the verse indicates that He was not competent to communicate clearly.


Additional information debunking a lot of quran and science claims can be found at http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/avij ... iracle.htm


In other words, this is an out of context mistranslation to try to prove a point.

The arabic word in the verse I quoted for heaven refers to the wider universe outside of the earth. This is what it means in arabic. And the arabic word in the verse "moosiaaoona" comes from the verb "evsea" meaning to expand. So the correct translation should read as it is given above. And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
Muhammad Asad translates this verse as 51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.
This is the correct translation of the verse from the arabic. Now if you can show me in the arabic it says something different I'll believe you.
Further evidence on the meaning of the word heaven in the verse 51:47

41:12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
We adorned the lower heaven with lights is referring to space and the wider universe as mentioned from verse 51:47.
The advantage that the Quran has over the bible is that we can always refer back to the original language in case a translation is incorrect to find the actual meaning. Now I challenge you to refer to your bible's original language and show me this is the correct translation of the verse.
Also I don't know who "Pangloss" is or what translation that comes from.
And if you are trying to say that the word heaven used in the verse from Isaiah means the wider universe meaning space as I stated it means in the quran then prove it..

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

It does NOT mean ‘steadily expanding’. The following ayat:

Sura 51 - Adh-Dhariyat [The Winnowing winds] Verse 47:
47. وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا ب�أَيْد� وَإ�نَّا لَم�وس�ع�ونَ

LITERALLY means:

Sura 51 - Adh-Dhariyat [The Winnowing winds] Verse 47:
47. And the sky (OR space) We built (OR constructed) it with power (OR support), and We are extending (OR spreading)