Guilty God or Guilty Science?

[Confused]

Physicist Hermann Bondi is a harsh critic of religion which he regards as a "serious and habit-forming evil". He cites as an example, the excesses of the European witch-craze:
"In much of Christian Europe the godfearing used to burn old women suspected of being witches, an arduous duty they felt had been clearly put upon them by the Bible. The facts on witch burning are clear enough: First, faith made otherwise decent people commit acts of unspeakable horror, showing how ordinary and everyday feelings of human kindness and revulsion at cruelty can be and have been overruled by religious belief. Secondly, it exposes as utterly hollow the claim that religion sets and absolute and unchanging foundation for morality" (Science in a Changing World: Paul Davies, pg 4).

While many scientists may abhor organized religion on the grounds of the perversion it inflicts on its most staunch followers, the greater fear is the perversion of the technology and advancements science makes.

The question becomes, who has really done the most damage, science or God. The greatest infliction God has personally set on mankind was the supposed "Great Flood", but we really don't know what the population was at the time, so we can't really tally up a death toll there. Man, on the other hand, has had a direct hand in more deaths than I think we could ever attribute to God.
Gods inventions of destruction:
-Man
-Nature
-Cosmological events
-Animals
-Viruses
-Bacteria
-Fungi
-Scripture

Technological/scientific inventions of destruction:
-Bow and arrows
-Swords
-Guns
-Canons
-Torpedos
-Missiles
-Grenades
-Atomic Bomb
-Nuclear Bomb
-Biological warfare

It seems that even the best of intentions for scientific advancement has been used against man. Is science killing us?

For debate:
1) Who has contributed more to mans current suffering: God or Science?
2) What has science done to alleviate the suffering that hasn't backfired?
3) What has God done to alleviate the suffering that hasn't backfired?

[Jose]

Hmmm...this assumes there is such a thing as a god. There may not be, in which case there are two flavors of suffering that are brought upon mankind: natural (diseases, floods, earthquakes, etc), and man-made. The vast majority are man-made. Of those, the vast majority stem from our evolutionary history as small tribes of related hominids, fighting over limited resources. The tribes that thought it was a good idea to share happily...died out. The tribes that had the genetically-inborn instinct to believe, automatically, that other groups are suspect, probably bad, and possibly not even "human," killed the others, got all the resources, and passed their genes on to us.

A certain amount of science has been driven by curiosity, and wanting to know how the world works. A certain amount has been driven by the quest for cures to stave off diseases, or for improvements in agriculture. But most seems to have been driven by the desire to discover better, more effective ways of killing the bad guys.

Regrettably, the world's various gods come in, at least in part, as players in dividing us up into groups. We seem quite happy to encourage "our group" to fight "the other guys," even if it's over something as minor as a soccer game. We apply the same instinct to gangs. We apply it to racism, to ethnic animosities, and to "ethnic cleansing." We apply it to religious affiliation, where ethnic animosities and killings are often based on your particular religious group--which god you follow, how you interpret his words, and how you view those who do things you consider to be against god's word.

So...I come down on neither side with this question. It's neither god nor science that has caused the most anguish and destruction. It's us. Take away religion, and we'll find other ways to group ourselves and fight. Take away science, and we'll kill each other with pointed sticks. But take us away, and there'd be no more strife.

[alexiarose]

Physicist Hermann Bondi is a harsh critic of religion which he regards as a "serious and habit-forming evil". He cites as an example, the excesses of the European witch-craze:
"In much of Christian Europe the godfearing used to burn old women suspected of being witches, an arduous duty they felt had been clearly put upon them by the Bible. The facts on witch burning are clear enough: First, faith made otherwise decent people commit acts of unspeakable horror, showing how ordinary and everyday feelings of human kindness and revulsion at cruelty can be and have been overruled by religious belief. Secondly, it exposes as utterly hollow the claim that religion sets and absolute and unchanging foundation for morality" (Science in a Changing World: Paul Davies, pg 4).

While many scientists may abhor organized religion on the grounds of the perversion it inflicts on its most staunch followers, the greater fear is the perversion of the technology and advancements science makes.

The question becomes, who has really done the most damage, science or God. The greatest infliction God has personally set on mankind was the supposed "Great Flood", but we really don't know what the population was at the time, so we can't really tally up a death toll there. Man, on the other hand, has had a direct hand in more deaths than I think we could ever attribute to God.
Gods inventions of destruction:
-Man
-Nature
-Cosmological events
-Animals
-Viruses
-Bacteria
-Fungi
-Scripture

Technological/scientific inventions of destruction:
-Bow and arrows
-Swords
-Guns
-Canons
-Torpedos
-Missiles
-Grenades
-Atomic Bomb
-Nuclear Bomb
-Biological warfare

It seems that even the best of intentions for scientific advancement has been used against man. Is science killing us?

For debate:
1) Who has contributed more to mans current suffering: God or Science?
2) What has science done to alleviate the suffering that hasn't backfired?
3) What has God done to alleviate the suffering that hasn't backfired?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't plastic the only manmade material on earth? Regardless, God created all things man uses to advance science, including gu powder, nuclear bombs, etc... So God is guilty of it all. Though He may have given man rule over all living things on earth, He never gave them rule over non-organics. He created the material, He carries the burden of the damage done because of them.

[McCulloch]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't plastic the only manmade material on earth?

You are wrong. Consider the element Lawrencium. Protons: 103; Neutrons: 159; Half-life: 13 s; Man-made. Or Meitnerium. Protons: 109; Neutrons: 157; Half-life: 3.4 milliseconds; Discovered: 1982; Man-made.

• Rayon
• Acetate
• Nylon
• Modacrylic
• Olefin
• Acrylic
• Polyester
• Vinyon
• Saran
• Spandex
• Vinalon
• Aramids - known as Nomex, Kevlar and Twaron
• Modal
• Polybenzimidazole fibre
• Lyocell
• Dyneema/Spectra
• Orlon
• Zylon
• Vectran
• Acrylonitrile rubber
• Fiberglass

You did invite correction!

[alexiarose]

Yes, I did invite correction. Thanks.

[Jose]

Regardless, God created all things man uses to advance science, including gu powder, nuclear bombs, etc... So God is guilty of it all. Though He may have given man rule over all living things on earth, He never gave them rule over non-organics. He created the material, He carries the burden of the damage done because of them.

I dunno...is it really fair to blame the Big Guy for putting stuff in front of us, and giving us the intelligence to kill each other with it? We have the intelligence not to kill each other too, I suppose. But it only takes a few nutcakes on the bad side to wipe out a whole bunch of folks on the good side.

Maybe we should hold god responsible for not having a better system of controlling us, and keeping us from doing harm. Maybe we should be especially critical of the idea of intentionally doing harm in the name of doing good. What sense does it make to create a species that can hold such paradoxical concepts at the same time (or, for that matter, believe a dozen impossible things before lunch).

[alexiarose]

Regardless, God created all things man uses to advance science, including gu powder, nuclear bombs, etc... So God is guilty of it all. Though He may have given man rule over all living things on earth, He never gave them rule over non-organics. He created the material, He carries the burden of the damage done because of them.

I dunno...is it really fair to blame the Big Guy for putting stuff in front of us, and giving us the intelligence to kill each other with it? We have the intelligence not to kill each other too, I suppose. But it only takes a few nutcakes on the bad side to wipe out a whole bunch of folks on the good side.

Maybe we should hold god responsible for not having a better system of controlling us, and keeping us from doing harm. Maybe we should be especially critical of the idea of intentionally doing harm in the name of doing good. What sense does it make to create a species that can hold such paradoxical concepts at the same time (or, for that matter, believe a dozen impossible things before lunch).

If we consider the fact that God condemned us to a sinful nature, and He is perfectly aware of how we exploit the resources He gave us, then He is guilty. If you put a gun in a childs hand and tell them to shoot the guy across the street, are you not guilty of providing the means for the destruction that child inflicted?

[MikeH]

If we consider the fact that God condemned us to a sinful nature, and He is perfectly aware of how we exploit the resources He gave us, then He is guilty. If you put a gun in a childs hand and tell them to shoot the guy across the street, are you not guilty of providing the means for the destruction that child inflicted?

Of course, but a working firearm is quite different than the base materials used to make it, and as far as I know there are no gun trees where you can just walk up and pluck a desert eagle 5.0 (if you know of such a tree, please let me know.)

[Jose]

If we consider the fact that God condemned us to a sinful nature, and He is perfectly aware of how we exploit the resources He gave us, then He is guilty. If you put a gun in a childs hand and tell them to shoot the guy across the street, are you not guilty of providing the means for the destruction that child inflicted?

As MikeH has said, providing raw materials is different from providing the finished product. But of course, it is assumed that the proposed god exists in some curious realm outside of our normal space/time, and thus knows and sees all, from the distant past to the infinite future. Thus, he knows precisely what we will do (or, from his perspective, did) with the stuff he gave us. So, perhaps, his giving us dirt, metals, nitrate, and the like is equivalent to giving us guns, since he knows that's what we'll do with them.

But, for this supposed god, is this guilt? I mean, look at his predicament. There he is, hanging out forever, without even someone else to play checkers with. Maybe the earth is just his version of TV. "Hey, I know. I'll give 'em some stuff, and then watch 'em mess around with it until they figure out how to blow each other up." Maybe that's what the free will part is about, so he can have an element of suspense in his programs. And, if it gets boring, he can just switch to the Mesozoic Channel and watch nature.

The John Day River in Oregon is named after John Day, who was rescued at the junction of the river with the Columbia. He and his party were captured by Indians (as they were called at the time), who took their supplies, weapons, and clothing, and then set them free. It took them a long time to make their way to a place where they could be rescued, no doubt involving some chilly nights, hunger spells, sunburn in unpleasant places, and whatnot. All this time, we can picture their previous captors watching from a distance, being amused at their shenanigans. They didn't have TV, after all, and what better entertainment than to take a bunch of city-slickers and turn 'em loose naked in the wilderness? They say god made us in his own image...that image may include a desire for entertainment, and if a few of the actors get killed as part of the action flick, well, that's just how the plot seems to work out.

[Cathar1950]

I think there is a passage in the bible that states God made us for his own good pleasure. Just a little less then the gods or as one authors puts it a little like the gods. Just enough to make it interesting.