Why God can't be proven

[cnorman18]

From another thread:

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I believe in God; but I also believe that if there were incontrovertible evidence or proof that God exists, we would have noticed it by now. I don't, of course, think that that is evidence that He doesn't exist; I believe that for reasons of His own, God doesn't wish to make Himself obvious.

I don't even think those reasons are all that hard to figure out. Jews, at least, believe that God intends humans to think for themselves with their own human minds and stand on their own human feet. Just as human parents want their children to grow up and become independent and capable adults as opposed to remaining totally dependent infants, so with God.

Consider what the world would be like if God had ever made His existence totally unambiguous and certain. No one would want to make a decision or try to learn anything any more! People would expect miraculous intervention in everything, and rightly so.

They would spend their time in efforts to divine God's will and learn His wisdom through magical and supernatural means. Why try to understand Creation through science at all? Just ask God. Why develop the science of medicine? Just ask God to heal you. Why pick out which tie to wear in the morning? Ask God what His will is.

God knows--He really does--that we have enough of that kind of crap going on already.

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For atheists:

I know, I know, Occam's razor and all that. This isn't an effort to prove anything; as I've said before, I consider that whole topic to be a waste of time. That's not the intent here, so don't bother.

For theists:

I present this as a possible explanation of why the existence of God cannot, apparently, be proven. No point in continuing to break our teeth on this if He doesn't want it done.

Of course, this idea has a corollary; all the activities that demand God's direct intervention are more or less ill-advised. Praying for help in extemis is one thing; praying for Him to prove He is there is quite another.

Here's another corollary, though I stress--probably to no effect--that it is not the topic of this thread: if we are not to go to the Bible for medical advice or higher mathematics, but are expected to figure those things out for ourselves, why should we go to the Bible for scientific information on other matters--like geology, astrophysics, biology, and the age of the Earth?

Please don't waste everyone's time handing me "proofs" that evolution is false. There are plenty of evolution threads on this forum already, and you can make those arguments there.

Just tell me why, if the ideas expressed above have no worth, why God didn't put up billboards making his existence concretely provable and provide us with an 800 number so we could ask Him questions.

[MrWhy]

From another thread:

-----

I believe in God; but I also believe that if there were incontrovertible evidence or proof that God exists, we would have noticed it by now. I don't, of course, think that that is evidence that He doesn't exist; I believe that for reasons of His own, God doesn't wish to make Himself obvious.

I don't even think those reasons are all that hard to figure out. Jews, at least, believe that God intends humans to think for themselves with their own human minds and stand on their own human feet. Just as human parents want their children to grow up and become independent and capable adults as opposed to remaining totally dependent infants, so with God.

Consider what the world would be like if God had ever made His existence totally unambiguous and certain. No one would want to make a decision or try to learn anything any more! People would expect miraculous intervention in everything, and rightly so.

They would spend their time in efforts to divine God's will and learn His wisdom through magical and supernatural means. Why try to understand Creation through science at all? Just ask God. Why develop the science of medicine? Just ask God to heal you. Why pick out which tie to wear in the morning? Ask God what His will is.

God knows--He really does--that we have enough of that kind of crap going on already.

I see no reason why a god could not make itself obvious in many ways, yet make it consistently clear that it would not intervene in any prayer requests. Surely a creator god would fully understand human psychology, and be capable of implementing regular revelations to achieve any results it desired. If a god had the power to develope our species as is stands, then that same god could also instill characteristics to deal with incontrovertible evidence of its existence. Why develop a species that needs to be challenged at all? Because it would be more interesting to observe? The god-to-human relationship you propose only makes sense if it was all just a game to a bored god. Why create humans at all? Was the god lonely?

The only way the state of the species makes sense is if we developed via a mindless, non-caring, simple process. In that case, the situation we are in, what we have become, and the absence of god evidence, is reasonable and expected. There are some large unknowns, but considering that we are only smart apes, ignorance is just part of what you would expect.

[cnorman18]

I see no reason why a god could not make itself obvious in many ways, yet make it consistently clear that it would not intervene in any prayer requests.

Doesn't matter. People would still look to those proofs for indications and try to divine God's will. Look at what they do now.

It's also pretty hard to fathom a parent that will make it clear he's in the room, but won't help if you're bleeding.

Surely a creator god would fully understand human psychology, and be capable of implementing regular revelations to achieve any results it desired.

According to theists, He has done just that.

If a god had the power to develope our species as is stands, then that same god could also instill characteristics to deal with incontrovertible evidence of its existence.

The point is that God did not "develop our species," but expects it to develop itself.

Why develop a species that needs to be challenged at all? Because it would be more interesting to observe?

Why do parents have children? Why not just buy dolls?

The god-to-human relationship you propose only makes sense if it was all just a game to a bored god.

So parents must be bored when they decide to have kids, and it's only a game when they let their children make mistakes and learn instead of solving all their problems for them.

Why create humans at all? Was the god lonely?

Maybe. One old Jewish saying is that God made the world because "God loves stories." Speaking for myself, I don't presume to understand or judge the mind of God. I question Him quite a lot, but not about the wisdom of creating a Universe.

The only way the state of the species makes sense is if we developed via a mindless, non-caring, simple process. In that case, the situation we are in, what we have become, and the absence of god evidence, is reasonable and expected. There are some large unknowns, but considering that we are only smart apes, ignorance is just part of what you would expect.

I'm trying to be polite here and answer some of your objections, but as I said at the outset, I don't offer this as proof of anything, and it isn't addressed to atheists.

It's an argument addressed to theists for a faith that is dependent on the rational instead of the irrational, reality instead the supernatural, and hard work and thought instead of miracles. That the atheists' solution is simply not to believe at all isn't particularly surprising, but I'm not talking to you.

There is such a thing as rational religion; if you don't think so, peace to you, but I hold such beliefs myself. There is a middle ground between beliefs that are little better than voodoo and total unbelief, and it is for that at once rational and theistic middle ground that I speak.

Don't expect me to try to prove to you that God exists. I don't jump through that particular hoop on command.

[MrWhy]

I see no reason why a god could not make itself obvious in many ways, yet make it consistently clear that it would not intervene in any prayer requests.

Doesn't matter. People would still look to those proofs for indications and try to divine God's will. Look at what they do now.

It's also pretty hard to fathom a parent that will make it clear he's in the room, but won't help if you're bleeding.

It's a fallacy to compare human attitude toward having and rearing children with what a creator god would have. Humans have children because evolution and culture creates a strong desire to conceive and care for them.

Surely a creator god would fully understand human psychology, and be capable of implementing regular revelations to achieve any results it desired.

According to theists, He has done just that.

I mean regular revelations in a form so obvious that hardly anyone would deny the existence of that god. That could be done.

If a god had the power to develope our species as is stands, then that same god could also instill characteristics to deal with incontrovertible evidence of its existence.

The point is that God did not "develop our species," but expects it to develop itself.

If a god just booted the universe and life without building in some rules for the evolution that produced us, then that sounds even more like a bored child looking for something interesting to play with. Let's kick the universe off and see what happens??? It opens it all up to personal interpretation about the god's intentions, and the need to follow any scripture. If it's an uninvolved god then why should we get involved with it.

Why develop a species that needs to be challenged at all? Because it would be more interesting to observe?

Why do parents have children? Why not just buy dolls?

Surprised you asked that. Dolls don't satisfy the built-in need to conceive and nurture. Pets play a better, but not quite satisfactory, role at that.

The god-to-human relationship you propose only makes sense if it was all just a game to a bored god.

So parents must be bored when they decide to have kids, and it's only a game when they let their children make mistakes and learn instead of solving all their problems for them.

Well, sometimes they are just bored, but you don't seem to understand how evolution works. Even mice have a powerful drive to reproduce and nurture. Parents try very hard to tell children how to behave. Again this is poor analogy with what you would expect of god behavior. Religious analogies are weak because the objects and conditions being compared are not similar at all.

Why create humans at all? Was the god lonely?

Maybe. One old Jewish saying is that God made the world because "God loves stories." Speaking for myself, I don't presume to understand or judge the mind of God. I question Him quite a lot, but not about the wisdom of creating a Universe.

The only way the state of the species makes sense is if we developed via a mindless, non-caring, simple process. In that case, the situation we are in, what we have become, and the absence of god evidence, is reasonable and expected. There are some large unknowns, but considering that we are only smart apes, ignorance is just part of what you would expect.

I'm trying to be polite here and answer some of your objections, but as I said at the outset, I don't offer this as proof of anything, and it isn't addressed to atheists.

It's an argument addressed to theists for a faith that is dependent on the rational instead of the irrational, reality instead the supernatural, and hard work and thought instead of miracles. That the atheists' solution is simply not to believe at all isn't particularly surprising, but I'm not talking to you.

There is such a thing as rational religion; if you don't think so, peace to you, but I hold such beliefs myself. There is a middle ground between beliefs that are little better than voodoo and total unbelief, and it is for that at once rational and theistic middle ground that I speak.

Don't expect me to try to prove to you that God exists. I don't jump through that particular hoop on command.

I suggest that a purely rational religion is not a very useful one. If scripture is not the revelation and (strong) evidence of a god, then all you have left is the weak logic that proposes a generic creator god. Weak because it answers complex mysteries by proposing causes that are even more complex and mysterious.

If theists reject the Bible, Koran, etc., as the proof of their god, then they have nothing left but an interesting philosophical discussion. Reason won't get you to a god unless you're willing to replace areas of ignorance with speculation.

[cnorman18]

MrWhy:

Rather than responding in detail, let me just say this; it's rather obvious that you have not read many, if any at all, of my other posts.

For starters, I have no problem with evolution (though that should have been clear in my OP); few Jews do. I do not read the Jewish Bible literally; I do not read the NT at all. I do not regard the Bible as "proof" of anything.

For the matter of that, I do not believe that "proof" of the existence or nonexistence of God is even possible. I regard such discussions as a colossal waste of time. People have been searching for "proof," one way or the other, for literally thousands of years, and no one's managed it yet.

I don't think that the decision of whether or not to believe in God can be, or indeed ever really is, based on logic; I think that that decision, like so many others, is more likely to be based on other factors--one's upbringing, personal inclinations, or even one's aesthetic taste. I think it is often based on the behavior of others who believe or don't, which ought to be irrelevant, but seldom is.

Many of our most important decisions are similarly non-logical (as opposed to illogical), but are no less valid for all that; the decision about with whom to fall in love, where to live, or what to do for a living, for instance.

I don't even think that what one "believes" is particularly important, not even to God. What matters is what we do. Before you ask, I have no idea how God will judge anyone, and I am more or less agnostic on the subject of whether or not there is a Heaven, a Hell, or any kind of afterlife at all.

You are not, in short, talking to me, but to someone else.

Once again, the OP was not addressed to atheists. I decline to participate in a discussion about whether or not a belief in any sort of God is reasonable, which is rather clearly where you're going. That was not the intent of my post.

I don't put up with Christians telling me what my religion ought to consist of or what kind of faith is appropriate for me to have, and I don't see why I should put up with it from an atheist either. I don't accept your definitions and limitations, and I don't feel any further need to explain myself. This is a chat forum, not a debate.

Feel free to take a look at some of my other threads and posts; perhaps we can have a conversation on one of those. This isn't the place.

Thanks for responding anyway.