Why do we lose it?

[Jester]

We Christians are sometimes guilty of loosing our tempers, getting judgmental, flippant, condescending, or just generally unpleasant. This is true in spite of the fact that we have the holy spirit with us. While it may be true that we are all "works in progress", I feel that it might be worthwhile to discuss the issue.

First, I believe that apologetics debate is not much of a means of evangellism. I don't know of anyone who became Christian due to a debate. I believe, however, that one of the best things that we can do for ourselves and others is "repay evil with good" (and, of course, never instigate or elevate tensions). Many people are here because they feel judged and attacked by Christians. We only prove these accusations when we come at them with an attacking and/or judgmental attitude.

The purpose is this discussion is to discuss some of our reasons for poor behavior. I would like us to name said reasons (preferably with each person naming those reasons pertaining to him/her) and put them up for discussion. I'd also like to impose the rule that no reason can be named without following it without either a way of fixing it (please try to be as realistic as possible - simply saying that we're going to stop probably won't help us much), or a request for advice in the matter.

I'll begin with one of the more embarrassing reasons why I'm short with people (I’ll make that the first response).

[Jester]

Good old fashioned pride.
I think a lot of us like to win, or at least like to look smart. It can be hard, however, when someone seems to be claiming that I am unintelligent simply for taking the position that I take. Without ruling out the possibility that this is just a matter of misunderstanding more often than I realize, I think I can say that this is a very real danger. I don’t think it’s the kind of thing that can be beaten by pretending that people aren’t sometimes mean to me.

The gospel, as usual, is a great answer to my problem. It forces me to admit that I’m not so smart (else, I wouldn’t be in so much need of grace all the time). Thus, I need to find a way to remind myself that my value is not based in my intelligence.

That’s fairly abstract, however. I’ll make that a bit more concrete by putting a reminder at the beginning of the page where I type my debates. A quotation of Christ’s command to love your enemy might be a good choice. If the Jews were expected to love the Romans, who killed their family members, certainly I can remember to love someone who’s been a bit rude to me.

And, of course, descriptions of anything that has worked for others are welcome.

[Chancellor]

We Christians are sometimes guilty of loosing our tempers, getting judgmental, flippant, condescending, or just generally unpleasant. This is true in spite of the fact that we have the holy spirit with us. While it may be true that we are all "works in progress", I feel that it might be worthwhile to discuss the issue.

We're human, we have emotions, and some of the people toward whom were losing our tempers, etc. do things with the intention of insulting and angering Christians.

First, I believe that apologetics debate is not much of a means of evangelism. I don't know of anyone who became Christian due to a debate. I believe, however, that one of the best things that we can do for ourselves and others is "repay evil with good" (and, of course, never instigate or elevate tensions). Many people are here because they feel judged and attacked by Christians. We only prove these accusations when we come at them with an attacking and/or judgmental attitude.

I'm not sure debate is a good means of evangelism but the Apostle Paul seemed to employ a similar methodology when he was talking to the Epicureans and the Stoics.

The purpose is this discussion is to discuss some of our reasons for poor behavior. I would like us to name said reasons (preferably with each person naming those reasons pertaining to him/her) and put them up for discussion. I'd also like to impose the rule that no reason can be named without following it without either a way of fixing it (please try to be as realistic as possible - simply saying that we're going to stop probably won't help us much), or a request for advice in the matter.

Because I tend to be a bull in a china shop, I have what might be described as a porcupine or sandpaper personality, or maybe just because some of the people who come onto these boards (atheists in particular) are intentionally annoying.

Now, for the real question: are any of these reasons justified? No.

[Jester]

We're human, we have emotions, and some of the people toward whom were losing our tempers, etc. do things with the intention of insulting and angering Christians.

I agree that this is a problem, though I would add something that you’ve implied already. Namely, that one of the reasons why God may be putting these kinds of people in our lives is to help us lean to deal with adversity in a loving manner.

I'm not sure debate is a good means of evangelism but the Apostle Paul seemed to employ a similar methodology when he was talking to the Epicureans and the Stoics.

Yeah, I’ve never known how to interpret that passage. Paul wasn’t terribly successful, and it seems that logical argument only works for those who are already open to the idea of Christianity. I can’t say that I feel very conclusive about that, but that is my thinking thus far.

Because I tend to be a bull in a china shop, I have what might be described as a porcupine or sandpaper personality, or maybe just because some of the people who come onto these boards (atheists in particular) are intentionally annoying.

Now, for the real question: are any of these reasons justified? No.

Indeed, it seems so reasonable from a human/psychological perspective, yet completely unjustified from a Godly perspective.
I’m starting to believe that those who are trying to upset me are the most accurate test of my love for my neighbors. I feel that it is precisely our ability to love our enemies that reveals the depth of our joy in the Lord.

[achilles12604]

Due to another thread, I have been studying Ghandi a lot lately. While I do not agree 100% with him, he did mention something which can answer the question of this thread.


Why do we lose it?

Nothing can be more hurtful to an honourable man than that he should be accused of bad faith.

[Jester]

Due to another thread, I have been studying Ghandi a lot lately. While I do not agree 100% with him, he did mention something which can answer the question of this thread.


Why do we lose it?

Nothing can be more hurtful to an honourable man than that he should be accused of bad faith.

That's brilliant. I'll be sure to remember that one.

Maybe this is something of a tangent, but I have a thought on this one. I've realized that I can't say that I'm presenting God's message faithfully if the fruit of the spirit isn't apparent in my actions. I'm thinking that this is the difference between my presenting the Gospel as an honourable man (empowering myself), or as a forgiven sinner (empowered by God). It's no crystal ball, but that does seem to be a good indicator of where my heart is at; if I cease to bear fruit when dealing with a particularly hurtful comment, I have to question the validity of my fruit to begin with.

That's my belief along these lines thus far, but I can't shake this feeling that I'm missing some things. As such, any thoughts?

[achilles12604]

Due to another thread, I have been studying Ghandi a lot lately. While I do not agree 100% with him, he did mention something which can answer the question of this thread.


Why do we lose it?

Nothing can be more hurtful to an honourable man than that he should be accused of bad faith.

That's brilliant. I'll be sure to remember that one.

Maybe this is something of a tangent, but I have a thought on this one. I've realized that I can't say that I'm presenting God's message faithfully if the fruit of the spirit isn't apparent in my actions. I'm thinking that this is the difference between my presenting the Gospel as an honourable man (empowering myself), or as a forgiven sinner (empowered by God). It's no crystal ball, but that does seem to be a good indicator of where my heart is at; if I cease to bear fruit when dealing with a particularly hurtful comment, I have to question the validity of my fruit to begin with.

That's my belief along these lines thus far, but I can't shake this feeling that I'm missing some things. As such, any thoughts?

You are gonna hate me for this, but something jumped into my head right away when I read this. I tried to think of something, anything, else to write, but to no avail. So I guess I will have to once again quote Gandhi and then add some thoughts. (PS - it was the crystal ball image I think which forced me to bring this out )

"I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the self becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man [woman] whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him [her]. Will he [she] gain anything by it? Will it restore him [her] to a control over his [her] own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to swaraj [freedom] for the hungry and spiritually starving millions?
Then you will find your doubts and your self melt away."

I read this and WOW did my own actions suddenly come into focus. I have been SO focused on myself for SO long. It is really kind of a "well duh" situation. I need to spend more time with my family and my daughters, my street ministry (which has been so badly neglected by me lately).

It can apply to your thoughts as well. Speak your words as if you are trying to use them as healing tools. Bandages and food to sustain and bind up those who are broken. Speak and write all in love and if you do so, then you can not go wrong. But if you write with the intention of being correct, or showing someone how wrong they are, then even the best intentions will go awry.

Will your words bind wounds, feed the hungry, and always show love? This is your talsiman.

By the way, I have always read your posts as a goal for mine to aspire to. So don't fret to much. I envy you, your strength of faith, character and eloquence at times.

[Jester]

You are gonna hate me for this, but something jumped into my head right away when I read this. I tried to think of something, anything, else to write, but to no avail. So I guess I will have to once again quote Gandhi and then add some thoughts. (PS - it was the crystal ball image I think which forced me to bring this out )

No worries. I love Gandhi, actually. Regardless of whether or not a person is Christian, I see no reason not to quote him if the statement happens to be insightful.

"I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the self becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man [woman] whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him [her]. Will he [she] gain anything by it? Will it restore him [her] to a control over his [her] own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to swaraj [freedom] for the hungry and spiritually starving millions?
Then you will find your doubts and your self melt away."

Wow, I’m going to have to think on that. I’ve been realizing lately that I don’t often think “is this action helping the other person?” Even if I’m not thinking in terms of getting what I want, I’m thinking in terms of being a martyr and “justifying” myself by playing victim. I like to think I’m getting better about actually pausing to ask myself what is best for the other person (God gave me an incredible wife, who’s been helping me a great deal with that.)

I read this and WOW did my own actions suddenly come into focus. I have been SO focused on myself for SO long. It is really kind of a "well duh" situation. I need to spend more time with my family and my daughters, my street ministry (which has been so badly neglected by me lately).

Ah, I can relate! I’ll spend hours thinking about what the Bible teaches when it suddenly occurs to me that I ought to be doing these things. Else, there’s no point in studying it.

It can apply to your thoughts as well. Speak your words as if you are trying to use them as healing tools. Bandages and food to sustain and bind up those who are broken. Speak and write all in love and if you do so, then you can not go wrong. But if you write with the intention of being correct, or showing someone how wrong they are, then even the best intentions will go awry.

I’m coming to believe that at least 90% of the ministry that could potentially occur on this site has nothing to do with making solid arguments, and everything to do with repaying evil with good. I think that all people have some understanding of the teaching “by their fruits, you shall know them”. Regardless of how well I present an argument, how can I expect people to believe me if I don’t have the fruit of the spirit?
When that question first hit me, it was one of those simultaneously exciting and guilty moments. I’m really trying to remember that.

By the way, I have always read your posts as a goal for mine to aspire to. So don't fret to much. I envy you, your strength of faith, character and eloquence at times.

Thanks much for that. I don’t know if I can communicate how glad I am to hear (read) that this is your opinion. I’ve always loved your posts, and really respected your arguments, even in those times in which they differed from my own. That is to say that I often use your posts as my good example.

I always want to add, though (in case you’re ever feeling alone in this area), that I’ve never felt like I have terribly strong faith. I’ve hung on to being a Christian for many years, but it’s felt like I’ve been hanging by a thread for most of that time. I’m sure that’s more a matter of my feelings than the truth, but I always feel like it’s a disservice to fellow believers if I make them feel like I’m never plagued with doubts like they are.

Anyway, thanks for the encouraging words. They really are greatly appreciated.

[alexiarose]

Why do we lose it? Simple, too many of us have forgotten how to laugh. Too many of us think we need to be serious about religion. That it is somehow so important to life or death. Is it any more important than breathing? But we hold our breath at times, right? Yet we can't laugh at ourselves when we know that some of our beliefs aren't exactly sane. Why?

Ok, so the trick is to use lots of the smiley thingies and REALLY BRIGHT COLORS

[achilles12604]

Why do we lose it? Simple, too many of us have forgotten how to laugh. Too many of us think we need to be serious about religion. That it is somehow so important to life or death. Is it any more important than breathing? But we hold our breath at times, right? Yet we can't laugh at ourselves when we know that some of our beliefs aren't exactly sane. Why?

Ok, so the trick is to use lots of the smiley thingies and REALLY BRIGHT COLORS

You strike me as a very innocent soul. I pray you stay this way forever.