What if you're wrong atheists...why take the chance?

[vfr]

From alt.atheism

Veritas writes:

"Atheists say there is no God but you stake your immortal soul on this. What if you're wrong? What then Why take the chance?"


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********


V replies:


I don't claim there is a God or not. I am an agnostic freethinker.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ ... opic=470.0

Nor do I know if there is an entity that is responsible for intelligent design or a universal power such as Karma or other supernatural phenomena at work...I just don't know.

Immortal Soul?

Again, I don't know.

Even if it was discovered that humans came from an alien experiment eons ago that dropped off some inferior specimens to the earth to see what would happen...this would qualify as something supernatural to me and godlike in its scope.

But when it comes to Yahweh I'd stake a 85% chance he is man made.

And if I am wrong I'd take my lumps in hell as Yahweh is not a good God to worship even if Yahweh was real. We all have to live within certain moral and philosophical guidelines if we wish to be at peace. And the idea that Yahweh is a good, all loving, peaceful God is just man made fantasy if one bothers to read what it says about Yahweh in the bible.

See coming to peace with the 'Hell test' below.

Also see 'Would God approve of God':

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ ... opic=318.0

When it comes to faith...faith must always be based on the fact of a 'first see-er' or 'first contact' that is telling the truth. We do not come up with ideas to base faith on all on our own. All religious faith is based on someone else's reports. If this persons report is based on lies, than the faith must evaporate.

So if you want a first hand report as to what God is or is not, go to the source of the faith. But don't make excuses for God and turn God into something that the written report does not show God to be.

All this being said... we ALL serve two higher powers...the God of Nature and the God of Inner Peace. But I do not claim these as Gods in the traditional sense that most people think of God.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ ... opic=342.0

When it comes to Yahweh and being at peace with the Hell test? Many atheists have put more time in trying to understand and find God than most theists.

Hermeneutics is a major problem with religious thought. The inability to understand as the need to understand says it all about man made religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

There is such debate and disagreement as to what the scriptures really mean and the consequences of a 'bad' interpretation will mean everlasting torture and pain in hell? When deciphering code and hidden meanings becomes a life or death proposition, one has to wonder about a God that supposedly put his name on such a muddled up document.

I can also tell you that destroying another being and causing them 'pain and torturing for eternity' will yield the provider of that pain and torture ZERO peace. This concept of pain, eternal hell and karma all smacks of the human touch of 'fear based' religious thought. We can see it in a quote from a Christian list member here:

JesusForgiveThem writes:

"Do you believe in eternal suffering? I surely would hate for anyone to consciously chose to spend an eternity in hell over some foolish pride that they can't get over ... as opposed to opening your heart to Jesus and see what he has to offer before writing Him off completely."

This discussion of eternal suffering that JesusForgiveThem brings up leads us to another problem. Which divinely inspired document does one follow as there are numerous books... all claiming to the word of God? And all these documents conflict with each other? It is with this overlap of these documents that are in agreement that I seek to find peace with.

And anything that conflicts or cannot be substantiated and does not pass my empirical tests I have to let it go as 'man's ego' being injected into the equation. If God wishes to make things clear and without the need for hermeneutics then I am all ears. But until that time, we must each do the best we can and come to peace with this subject for ourselves.

But this problem of hermeneutics is not limited solely to the study of monotheism. It also encompasses the history of Buddhist thought as well. A favorite saying of the Mahayana is that of using 'skillful means' to achieve ones goal. Skillful Means = Put a Spin On It = LIE.

Now, I am not just singling out the Mahayana as the bad boys. Lies and imperfections are widespread throughout all spiritual thought that was ever created my man. Man is imperfect and as such all his religious thought it also imperfect. But within these imperfections there are also many perfection's, as seldom is a thing all good or all bad.

With my own spiritual quest I have evolved into an agnostic freethinker. From the tradition of religion telling massive lies intermingled with some truths (yes the spiritual traditions of the world contain some truth) I have learned to not believe anything that requires faith and cannot be tested and applied as a universal law to the whole of society. I apply this form of thought to all my spiritual traditions I draw from whether it be monotheism to Buddhism or Taoism.

Now some of these spiritual truths are 'lesser truths' and subjective in nature. The application of such relative truth is more or less unimportant and up to the likes or dislikes of the individual. But the larger truths that are universal in nature are what I try to distinguish and then follow. If a concept is not 'crystal clear' and requires much speculation, I let it go. We can see what has happened in religious history when man gets too 'enthused' about interpretation. I do not wish to follow in those footsteps.

How do we know we have made an honest effort at this decoding business? For one, we do not fool with decoding, we just think and test for truth. Number two, we come to peace by giving it the 'hell test.' We work towards moral and ethical principles and develop what is called a 'good heart' which also aligns us magically with the empirical basics of religious thought in the various documents attributed to be the word of God.

If we are successful at this quest and ethically and morally sound, when it comes time to die we can be at peace knowing we have done our best in this area. And if we find out that there is a hell and the entity 'claiming to be God' (for lack of a better name) has domed us to hell from 'not decoding it right' even with our best efforts, we can be at peace with knowing God is an unjust God and not a real God but an alien 'god bully' of sorts.

And when it comes to dying and the title 'loving God', we as imperfect humans that strive to develop a good heart will contain infinity more of that true 'Godly nature' that this 'alien god bully' claming to be God that seeks to torture those that have worked along spiritual lines to be good people.

This is the 'hell test' in a nutshell - you are at peace with your actions and you are authentic as well about your life. When you align Right Actions + Authenticity this equals PEACE - Just as Socrates told his accusers when they condemned him to death. Socrates had no fear of evil in this life or after death:

"Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death."

As I write this post, I am reminded of aliens in an old "Superman" movies that came to earth to tell us to 'bow down' to them or else? Yes, the aliens in the movie had great powers but they were not God...they were just gods to us humans. Seek truth, seek inner peace, seek the development of a good heart and put your best efforts into finding it and you too can be at peace with this subject.

Of course, if one has never found inner peace all that I am telling you is unbelievable to you? Always remember...a wise mans knows what he says and a fool can only say what he knows. Learn to say what you know, and also know right from wrong actions and you can be at peace with your life or any life to come as well.

One last point. If you look at the name of the Christian I quoted above it is JesusForgiveThem it tells an interesting story in itself. If a God needs to be told by JesusForgiveThem or any other of us humans what to do, what is right or wrong and we can sway an omnipotent and perfect God just by begging...then that is one scary God. For we can see what has happened on earth when human demigods have been in power.

See:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html






Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2

[McCulloch]

Don't they ever get tired of Pascal's wager?

[Zzyzx]

Don't they ever get tired of Pascal's wager?

Many who pose the idea appear to believe they are being original thinkers.

Most do not realize the cost of "believing" is to turn over at least part of life's decisions to clerics who dictate how to live and how to worship in order to achieve "salvation" (being saved from a threat they invented).

Promises and threats for what will happen in an "afterlife" are ideal because no one can complain or warn future generations if they are cheated.