Good Atheist Bad Christian

[spiritletter]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

[Confused]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

Judged by whom? In my view, I would say you know some hypocritical Christians and some moral atheists. In the view of God, it would likely be hypocritical Christians and then those "others" who He doesn't recognize because they don't recognize them.

[spiritletter]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

Judged by whom? In my view, I would say you know some hypocritical Christians and some moral atheists. In the view of God, it would likely be hypocritical Christians and then those "others" who He doesn't recognize because they don't recognize them.

Depends on who you think God is. I don't interpret the Bible literally. The extremists in all religions claim that if we do not except every word of their belief system we are doomed to whatever punishment awaits us. That usually means the word of the egomaniacs who have hijacked that particular religion.

Judgment: I'm really being ironic about certain rigid assumptions about judgment that would allow people to be "saved" if they claimed to "believe" as opposed to those who did good deeds their entire lives but, because they did not believe, were "damned."

The standoff between atheism and belief only exists if one takes the Bible literally, which I do not.

I have a strong faith, and yet I am critical of the Bible. I have a strong faith, and yet I deeply appreciate atheists who are good people. Only a perverse God would damn a good atheist, that is my point. Only a perverse God would save a greedy, sociopathic blowhard televangelist.

[Confused]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

Judged by whom? In my view, I would say you know some hypocritical Christians and some moral atheists. In the view of God, it would likely be hypocritical Christians and then those "others" who He doesn't recognize because they don't recognize them.

Depends on who you think God is. I don't interpret the Bible literally. The extremists in all religions claim that if we do not except every word of their belief system we are doomed to whatever punishment awaits us. That usually means the word of the egomaniacs who have hijacked that particular religion.

Judgment: I'm really being ironic about certain rigid assumptions about judgment that would allow people to be "saved" if they claimed to "believe" as opposed to those who did good deeds their entire lives but, because they did not believe, were "damned."

The standoff between atheism and belief only exists if one takes the Bible literally, which I do not.

I have a strong faith, and yet I am critical of the Bible. I have a strong faith, and yet I deeply appreciate atheists who are good people. Only a perverse God would damn a good atheist, that is my point. Only a perverse God would save a greedy, sociopathic blowhard televangelist.

I caught the sarcasm.

My question would be something like this. Based on what you have written above, is their any scripture, that taken in the metaphorical sense, would indicate that a moral atheist would not be condemned? Obviously, the hypocritical Christian would despite the literal or metaphorical interpretation. But the old adage just keeps creeping up here " the road to hell is paved with good intentions". So out of curiosity, I have to wonder if anything taken in a allegorical sense, could allow for the atheist who is moral with a good heart, would be granted eternal salvation despite the fact that we reject the savior.

[spiritletter]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

Judged by whom? In my view, I would say you know some hypocritical Christians and some moral atheists. In the view of God, it would likely be hypocritical Christians and then those "others" who He doesn't recognize because they don't recognize them.

Depends on who you think God is. I don't interpret the Bible literally. The extremists in all religions claim that if we do not except every word of their belief system we are doomed to whatever punishment awaits us. That usually means the word of the egomaniacs who have hijacked that particular religion.

Judgment: I'm really being ironic about certain rigid assumptions about judgment that would allow people to be "saved" if they claimed to "believe" as opposed to those who did good deeds their entire lives but, because they did not believe, were "damned."

The standoff between atheism and belief only exists if one takes the Bible literally, which I do not.

I have a strong faith, and yet I am critical of the Bible. I have a strong faith, and yet I deeply appreciate atheists who are good people. Only a perverse God would damn a good atheist, that is my point. Only a perverse God would save a greedy, sociopathic blowhard televangelist.

I caught the sarcasm.

My question would be something like this. Based on what you have written above, is their any scripture, that taken in the metaphorical sense, would indicate that a moral atheist would not be condemned? Obviously, the hypocritical Christian would despite the literal or metaphorical interpretation. But the old adage just keeps creeping up here " the road to hell is paved with good intentions". So out of curiosity, I have to wonder if anything taken in a allegorical sense, could allow for the atheist who is moral with a good heart, would be granted eternal salvation despite the fact that we reject the savior.

That is a good question, and at this point I don't know the answer to it. I am moved, however by: 1) Job 2) Christ wondering on the cross if God had forsaken him? 3) Jonah railing at God. I am much more moved by Jonah than I am by the God who takes away his gourd to demonstrate pure power.

One of the things I like about Judaism is that it retains this respect for human frustration and suffering. It suggests that we need not be perfect. The Christ allusion suggests that Christ himself was not perfect (according to what he himself professed).

Where is the lesson? In a demonstration of God's power, or in the human response to it? What if it is not either one but the dialectical relationship that has the teaching value?

[Froese]

Let me assume that, in the christian sense (that is, drawing your morals from the bible) that it is utterly impossible for an atheist to be 'good'. In fact, there are two questions to this answer, depending on your world view. Christians view atheists as bad because they do not conform to the ideas and practices of the bible, namely because they do not believe in it. Understandable. Atheists, however, think the same of christians, for dabbling in an obviously ridiculous ideal, along with the many dogmatic books, teachings and thoughts that surround it. Moreover, they are subjecting others to the same 'immoral' practices. To sum up, atheists and christians have irreconcilably different morals, leading one to see the other as 'bad' as you so eloquently put it. The fact is, for you to be viewing anyone as bad, you must have adopted a moral stance. i would suggest you examine what this stance involves, and see as to whether or not it conforms to biblical ideas. I would also point out that the nature of your question suggests that Christians are intrinsically good. if this is your view, i suggest that you read the bible.

[spiritletter]

Let me assume that, in the christian sense (that is, drawing your morals from the bible) that it is utterly impossible for an atheist to be 'good'. In fact, there are two questions to this answer, depending on your world view. Christians view atheists as bad because they do not conform to the ideas and practices of the bible, namely because they do not believe in it. Understandable. Atheists, however, think the same of christians, for dabbling in an obviously ridiculous ideal, along with the many dogmatic books, teachings and thoughts that surround it. Moreover, they are subjecting others to the same 'immoral' practices. To sum up, atheists and christians have irreconcilably different morals, leading one to see the other as 'bad' as you so eloquently put it. The fact is, for you to be viewing anyone as bad, you must have adopted a moral stance. i would suggest you examine what this stance involves, and see as to whether or not it conforms to biblical ideas. I would also point out that the nature of your question suggests that Christians are intrinsically good. if this is your view, i suggest that you read the bible.

Good response. I guess I'm questioning rigid interpretations of scripture that claim incontrovertibly that anyone who is not a Christian is damned. According to this way of thinking, you can go out and, say, cheat employees out of their pensions and then go to church and repent and you will be alright. Whereas, say, an atheist can do something immeasurably good for human beings, but, because he is an atheist, he will automatically be damned. It's this kind of crap that drives me nuts.

That said, there are even scriptural admonitions against this kind of thinking. I believe Christ says, somewhere, that "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven," whatever heaven is. Or isn't.

By the way, I am also aware that all through the Bible, Christians behave badly.

My take on the Bible is that people are vastly imperfect, and there are great teachers and leaders who appear from time to time who are a little less imperfect, and have good things to say.

[Goat]

That said, there are even scriptural admonitions against this kind of thinking. I believe Christ says, somewhere, that "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven," whatever heaven is. Or isn't.

By the way, I am also aware that all through the Bible, Christians behave badly.

My take on the Bible is that people are vastly imperfect, and there are great teachers and leaders who appear from time to time who are a little less imperfect, and have good things to say.

My take on the Bible is that the bible is the story of a people's search for God, with all the peoples flaws exposed. Even the greatest people in the bible had terrible flaws, yet, they could still be just fine with God. King David did horrible things, and was a terribly flawed person, yet, he also did good, and was favored by God. If people that flawed can find God, and be favored by god, then everyone can.

[spiritletter]

That said, there are even scriptural admonitions against this kind of thinking. I believe Christ says, somewhere, that "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven," whatever heaven is. Or isn't.

By the way, I am also aware that all through the Bible, Christians behave badly.

My take on the Bible is that people are vastly imperfect, and there are great teachers and leaders who appear from time to time who are a little less imperfect, and have good things to say.

My take on the Bible is that the bible is the story of a people's search for God, with all the peoples flaws exposed. Even the greatest people in the bible had terrible flaws, yet, they could still be just fine with God. King David did horrible things, and was a terribly flawed person, yet, he also did good, and was favored by God. If people that flawed can find God, and be favored by god, then everyone can.

We are in complete agreement here.

[twobitsmedia]

Let me propose my dilemma: what if I know atheists who are fine moral people and Christians who are dishonest? What if I can depend on the atheist in a tight spot but the Christian lacks courage? How is this judged?

I would judge it as common sense and use the one I can depend on. I don't see any moral dilemna.