Why is one good and the other bad?

[McCulloch]

[Jesus said, ]"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' [...]
if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

Why is it that one of these Biblical teachings is considered a good moral teaching but the other one is not?

[McCulloch]

Ok, she had sex before marriage, so we should stone her to death. Is this not overboard?

A man has accused her of premarital sex. Now, how hard would it be for him to prove this and how hard would it be for her to disprove this? The man, not being happy with his new brides response in bed could easily dispose of the linen with virgin blood on it and clean the woman before he made his accusation. The woman on the other hand has no way to disprove it. Think the deck was stacked against the woman?

Of course it seems unfair to you. That is because you are looking at it from a human perspective. God is fair and just. Therefore, anything he commands must be fair and just. If it looks unfair to you, that is because you do not understand God's fairness and justice. If you say that something that God said or did is unfair or unjust, then you are guilty of judging God.

[Confused]

Ok, she had sex before marriage, so we should stone her to death. Is this not overboard?

A man has accused her of premarital sex. Now, how hard would it be for him to prove this and how hard would it be for her to disprove this? The man, not being happy with his new brides response in bed could easily dispose of the linen with virgin blood on it and clean the woman before he made his accusation. The woman on the other hand has no way to disprove it. Think the deck was stacked against the woman?

Of course it seems unfair to you. That is because you are looking at it from a human perspective. God is fair and just. Therefore, anything he commands must be fair and just. If it looks unfair to you, that is because you do not understand God's fairness and justice. If you say that something that God said or did is unfair or unjust, then you are guilty of judging God.

Since it would appear to me that I will never find this God, I think I am perfectly capable of judging the concept of one. Should God represent what is being sold, then one should be able to logically conclude that His creation shares His views about what is fair and just. Since this is obviously not the case, I am led to believe that too much snake oil has been sold to humanity.

[McCulloch]

Of course it seems unfair to you. That is because you are looking at it from a human perspective. God is fair and just. Therefore, anything he commands must be fair and just. If it looks unfair to you, that is because you do not understand God's fairness and justice. If you say that something that God said or did is unfair or unjust, then you are guilty of judging God.

Since it would appear to me that I will never find this God, I think I am perfectly capable of judging the concept of one. Should God represent what is being sold, then one should be able to logically conclude that His creation shares His views about what is fair and just. Since this is obviously not the case, I am led to believe that too much snake oil has been sold to humanity.

You are not capable of judging the concept of God. You and I are inherently sinful. We are fallen. The only thing for you to do is to admit to your unworthiness and in complete humility and debasement, seek God's grace. He loves all of us, and when it seems like he does not, it is because you just do not understand God's all encompassing love. Repent while you still have time. Submit yourself completely to God's will. If he says to cut off your hand, cut off your hand. He loves you. And if you do not love him back, you will spend eternity in torment.

[Aslan]

Ok, she had sex before marriage, so we should stone her to death. Is this not overboard?

A man has accused her of premarital sex. Now, how hard would it be for him to prove this and how hard would it be for her to disprove this? The man, not being happy with his new brides response in bed could easily dispose of the linen with virgin blood on it and clean the woman before he made his accusation. The woman on the other hand has no way to disprove it. Think the deck was stacked against the woman?

Of course it seems unfair to you. That is because you are looking at it from a human perspective. God is fair and just. Therefore, anything he commands must be fair and just. If it looks unfair to you, that is because you do not understand God's fairness and justice. If you say that something that God said or did is unfair or unjust, then you are guilty of judging God.

Since it would appear to me that I will never find this God, I think I am perfectly capable of judging the concept of one. Should God represent what is being sold, then one should be able to logically conclude that His creation shares His views about what is fair and just. Since this is obviously not the case, I am led to believe that too much snake oil has been sold to humanity.

Please do not give up on your search...your quest. It is true that there is much pain and suffering in this world, but God does take care of His people...He does not do so in the way we would like, or the way the World says that He should. Our bodies are weak, we have disease and disability, we die and are killed. It is a world of many sorrows. Jesus lived this out first hand. He was a man of many sorrows...he was murdered. Instead God takes care of our more permanent...more important parts...that is He gives us peace in struggle, light in darkness, comfort in pain. No we are not taken out of these things, but instead are able to see through them...through the wretchedness of a fallen world to the creator that waits to give us wholeness, and in fact gives it to us as much as we can take in our current state. He thought it worth the risk in order to give our lives meaning...to give us free will. (And yes I understand that God does not take risks, because He is God, but He is outside of time...our finite words cannot describe an infinite God).

Please read this quote:

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe is a price worth paying for free will--that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings--then we make take it it is worth paying.

[SpikedLillac]

McVaugh wasn't created to blow up buildings even if he was trained to kill.
Now this poor girl would have been created to have sex as well as the spoiler and had hormones running thru them just in case. Every human on this planet got her for what she is getting stoned for while hardly anyone has blown up a building to have children. You would stake out a building not court it.

Are you saying that if one has raging hormones that they can not resist their urges? One MUST have sex before they are married even though they know that it is dishonorable to do so? I know many friends who decided to save their virginity for marriage. They were able to resist their urges and wait. Its not impossible

[/quote]1) Where are these laws against premarital sex? I believe we had a thread addressing this already and couldn't find anything to support it.

Where is the thread so I may read it? Don't you think that someone was stoned for no reason that there would be riots or at least a trial for murdering someone? If premarital sex was wrong than murder must certainly be wrong too right?

2) Ok, she had sex before marriage, so we should stone her to death. Is this not overboard?

I agree that it was overboard. One must also realize that, unfortunately, that's how things were conducted back then. Don't you think that hanging a man on a cross for just proclaiming he was God was a little overboard too?

3) A man has accused her of premarital sex. Now, how hard would it be for him to prove this and how hard would it be for her to disprove this? The man, not being happy with his new brides response in bed could easily dispose of the linen with virgin blood on it and clean the woman before he made his accusation. The woman on the other hand has no way to disprove it. Think the deck was stacked against the woman?[/quote]

But it does not say that. Its a possibility but thats not what it says. It says that the husband found his new bride not to be a virgin so she was stoned. You're trying to look into something that can not be proved. I'm just going by what the passage says.

Of course it seems unfair to you. That is because you are looking at it from a human perspective. God is fair and just. Therefore, anything he commands must be fair and just. If it looks unfair to you, that is because you do not understand God's fairness and justice. If you say that something that God said or did is unfair or unjust, then you are guilty of judging God.

Where does it say that God commanded them to stone her? The religious leaders commanded it not God. I have not read anywhere in the bible that if a person sins they must be stoned. And "cutting off one's hand if they steal" just shows that in the last case scenerio should eliminate what ever caused that person to steal which would be the hand. It was not meant as a punishment but as a symbol showing how important it is not to sin.

[McCulloch]

Where does it say that God commanded them to stone her? The religious leaders commanded it not God. I have not read anywhere in the bible that if a person sins they must be stoned.

If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' [...]
if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

[Confused]

Ok, she had sex before marriage, so we should stone her to death. Is this not overboard?

A man has accused her of premarital sex. Now, how hard would it be for him to prove this and how hard would it be for her to disprove this? The man, not being happy with his new brides response in bed could easily dispose of the linen with virgin blood on it and clean the woman before he made his accusation. The woman on the other hand has no way to disprove it. Think the deck was stacked against the woman?

Of course it seems unfair to you. That is because you are looking at it from a human perspective. God is fair and just. Therefore, anything he commands must be fair and just. If it looks unfair to you, that is because you do not understand God's fairness and justice. If you say that something that God said or did is unfair or unjust, then you are guilty of judging God.

Since it would appear to me that I will never find this God, I think I am perfectly capable of judging the concept of one. Should God represent what is being sold, then one should be able to logically conclude that His creation shares His views about what is fair and just. Since this is obviously not the case, I am led to believe that too much snake oil has been sold to humanity.

Please do not give up on your search...your quest. It is true that there is much pain and suffering in this world, but God does take care of His people...He does not do so in the way we would like, or the way the World says that He should. Our bodies are weak, we have disease and disability, we die and are killed. It is a world of many sorrows. Jesus lived this out first hand. He was a man of many sorrows...he was murdered. Instead God takes care of our more permanent...more important parts...that is He gives us peace in struggle, light in darkness, comfort in pain. No we are not taken out of these things, but instead are able to see through them...through the wretchedness of a fallen world to the creator that waits to give us wholeness, and in fact gives it to us as much as we can take in our current state. He thought it worth the risk in order to give our lives meaning...to give us free will. (And yes I understand that God does not take risks, because He is God, but He is outside of time...our finite words cannot describe an infinite God).

Please read this quote:

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe is a price worth paying for free will--that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings--then we make take it it is worth paying.

Why is it that man is always referred to as pitiful and weak etc..... Why, if we are a creation of such a loving God are we so wretched? Because two people ate from a stupid tree? This is a loving God. Punish every generation from here until eternity for the sole acts of two people?

How can I argue against an entity that doesn't deem me worthy enough of acknowledging me to argue with?

Ok, give me free will, then make me suffer a mortal life because you gave it to me? This is illogical. The whole dang scenario becomes more illogical and more confusing every time I think I get close to understanding it. And I am really sick of hearing about how sinful mans nature is. If it is sinful, it is because God deemed it so. If he is so perfect, the fix the dang mistakes. Quit torturing us, our children, our families etc.... because He created a flawed creation. For the love of all that is earthly, if this God exists, then show Himself. Enough with the stupid games. If my path is to hell then so be it. But if He is true, then He well past due for an appearance because for me, He only creates chaos and confusion. It is much simpler to beleive nothing than to continue this circus.

[Cogitoergosum]

Why is it that man is always referred to as pitiful and weak etc..... Why, if we are a creation of such a loving God are we so wretched? Because two people ate from a stupid tree? This is a loving God. Punish every generation from here until eternity for the sole acts of two people?

How can I argue against an entity that doesn't deem me worthy enough of acknowledging me to argue with?

Ok, give me free will, then make me suffer a mortal life because you gave it to me? This is illogical. The whole dang scenario becomes more illogical and more confusing every time I think I get close to understanding it. And I am really sick of hearing about how sinful mans nature is. If it is sinful, it is because God deemed it so. If he is so perfect, the fix the dang mistakes. Quit torturing us, our children, our families etc.... because He created a flawed creation. For the love of all that is earthly, if this God exists, then show Himself. Enough with the stupid games. If my path is to hell then so be it. But if He is true, then He well past due for an appearance because for me, He only creates chaos and confusion. It is much simpler to beleive nothing than to continue this circus.

Confused, the world will make a lot of sense when you are no longer confused and believe there is no god, we are all the product of a blind adaptative process, called natural selection. This thought in mind, the world will make a lot more sense.