Free Will

[POI]

Varying viewpoints and positions exist, when discussing the topic of free will. Recently, The Tanager and I had a brief discussion regarding this topic. Rather than going over the 'whole' of what the term "free will" (may or may not encompass), I instead wanted to hyper-focus on one particular aspect.

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines free will as: "Free will is the capacity for agents to make choices uncoerced by external forces, allowing them to be the authors of their own actions and hold moral responsibility."

The same source views coercion as: "Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act against their will through the use of threats, intimidation, physical force, or psychological pressure. It is used to compel compliance, such as obtaining a confession, forcing a contract signature, or controlling behavior, often involving threats of harm or misuse of authority."

For debate: Does the Bible present any level of coercion? Is this why so many folks apply Pascal's wager, in that they are in the Jesus-camp (just-in-case)? Does the Bible god violate free will, in this aspect, in any capacity?

When parsing this scenario out, let's apply a modern example. A group of Christian missionaries travel abroad to a remote area where many/most/all may not have heard of a Jesus. The Christian missionaries present and preach the words of Jesus to these uninformed folks. "Project conversion" is not going as well as hoped. One of the Christian missionaries, in a last-ditch effort of conversion, decides to quote Mark 16, and tells them -- "the ones who believe in Jesus will be saved, and the ones that do not believe will instead be condemned."

The Bible also speaks about negative outcomes for disbelief in other areas of the Bible too. We can cross those paths as needed.

[1213]

Varying viewpoints and positions exist, when discussing the topic of free will. Recently, The Tanager and I had a brief discussion regarding this topic. Rather than going over the 'whole' of what the term "free will" (may or may not encompass), I instead wanted to hyper-focus on one particular aspect.

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines free will as: "Free will is the capacity for agents to make choices uncoerced by external forces, allowing them to be the authors of their own actions and hold moral responsibility."

The same source views coercion as: "Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act against their will through the use of threats, intimidation, physical force, or psychological pressure. It is used to compel compliance, such as obtaining a confession, forcing a contract signature, or controlling behavior, often involving threats of harm or misuse of authority."

If one can be forced to act against his will, it means the person has own free will, he just for some reason can't act as he wants. If he would not have free will, his will could be changed by force so that he would do what is demanded by his own forcefully changed will.

For debate: Does the Bible present any level of coercion? Is this why so many folks apply Pascal's wager, in that they are in the Jesus-camp (just-in-case)? Does the Bible god violate free will, in this aspect, in any capacity?

No, God does not violate free will, if it is reasonably defined. You can want what ever you want freely. And there is no coercion, because it would not work. In the Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous. And if you act righteously only because of fear or hope of reward, it is not very righteous. You cannot do anything to earn the eternal life, therefore there is no way for coercion to be useful.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[alexxcJRO]

No, God does not violate free will, if it is reasonably defined. You can want what ever you want freely.

Unless your the Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt. Then your free will can be violated and you cannot actually do what ever you want freely.
So much for logical consistency and "free will is so vital and important".

"The LORD said to Moses, 'When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'"(Exodus 4:21)
"12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."(Exodus 9:12)

[1213]

No, God does not violate free will, if it is reasonably defined. You can want what ever you want freely.

Unless your the Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt. Then your free will can be violated and you cannot actually do what ever you want freely.
So much for logical consistency and "free will is so vital and important".

"The LORD said to Moses, 'When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'"(Exodus 4:21)
"12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."(Exodus 9:12)

I don't think free will means person is then also omnipotent. It only means person can want freely whatever he wants. Pharaoh had free will and he would not have wanted to let the slaves go free, but he was forced to let them go.

Hardening of pharaohs heart happened first by asking him to let the slaves go. And his heart softened every time there was a plague. And every time the plague ended, the normal situation hardened his heart.

I don't think there was any magical mind manipulation that change pharaoh's mind and will.

[alexxcJRO]

No, God does not violate free will, if it is reasonably defined. You can want what ever you want freely.

Unless your the Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt. Then your free will can be violated and you cannot actually do what ever you want freely.
So much for logical consistency and "free will is so vital and important".

"The LORD said to Moses, 'When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'"(Exodus 4:21)
"12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."(Exodus 9:12)

I don't think free will means person is then also omnipotent. It only means person can want freely whatever he wants. Pharaoh had free will and he would not have wanted to let the slaves go free, but he was forced to let them go.

Hardening of pharaohs heart happened first by asking him to let the slaves go. And his heart softened every time there was a plague. And every time the plague ended, the normal situation hardened his heart.

I don't think there was any magical mind manipulation that change pharaoh's mind and will.

Trolling and ignoring obvious passage that talked of God promising he will harden Pharaoh’s heart before the events even started. My argument still stands.

[1213]

...
Trolling and ignoring obvious passage that talked of God promising he will harden Pharaoh’s heart before the events even started. My argument still stands.

Trolling?

Sorry, I don't think I have ignored any passage. I only told how Pharaohs heart was hardened. It happened by demanding the slaves go free and also by ending the plagues. As the story shows that is what happened.

How do you think the hardening happened, if not as told in the story?

[alexxcJRO]

...
Trolling and ignoring obvious passage that talked of God promising he will harden Pharaoh’s heart before the events even started. My argument still stands.

Trolling?

Sorry, I don't think I have ignored any passage. I only told how Pharaohs heart was hardened. It happened by demanding the slaves go free and also by ending the plagues. As the story shows that is what happened.

How do you think the hardening happened, if not as told in the story?

God promised he will harden Pharaoh’s heart("But I(Yahweh-Jesus) will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go") and after that he did what he promised: Pharaoh’s heart was harden("But the Lord("Yahweh-Jesus") hardened Pharaoh’s heart.").

The above means if one is honest and understands simple logic that God(Yahweh-Jesus) violated Pharaoh’s free will.

[The Tanager]

Varying viewpoints and positions exist, when discussing the topic of free will. Recently, The Tanager and I had a brief discussion regarding this topic. Rather than going over the 'whole' of what the term "free will" (may or may not encompass), I instead wanted to hyper-focus on one particular aspect.

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines free will as: "Free will is the capacity for agents to make choices uncoerced by external forces, allowing them to be the authors of their own actions and hold moral responsibility."

The same source views coercion as: "Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act against their will through the use of threats, intimidation, physical force, or psychological pressure. It is used to compel compliance, such as obtaining a confession, forcing a contract signature, or controlling behavior, often involving threats of harm or misuse of authority."

For debate: Does the Bible present any level of coercion? Is this why so many folks apply Pascal's wager, in that they are in the Jesus-camp (just-in-case)? Does the Bible god violate free will, in this aspect, in any capacity?

When parsing this scenario out, let's apply a modern example. A group of Christian missionaries travel abroad to a remote area where many/most/all may not have heard of a Jesus. The Christian missionaries present and preach the words of Jesus to these uninformed folks. "Project conversion" is not going as well as hoped. One of the Christian missionaries, in a last-ditch effort of conversion, decides to quote Mark 16, and tells them -- "the ones who believe in Jesus will be saved, and the ones that do not believe will instead be condemned."

The Bible also speaks about negative outcomes for disbelief in other areas of the Bible too. We can cross those paths as needed.

I don't think the Bible presents any level of coercion. The passages you shared in that other thread (Mark 16:15-16, Matthew 25:41, John 3:18, and Revelation 20:15) provide information about negative outcomes, but that isn't enough to qualify for coercion. A parent telling their child that if they touch a hot stove, they will burn their hand is not coercion, for instance. Your scenario's missionary doesn't get their last-ditch effort idea from those texts or any Biblical texts I'm aware of.

And I'm not sure many people are in the Jesus camp because of Pascal's wager, but maybe you've got more to back that up.

[POI]

Varying viewpoints and positions exist, when discussing the topic of free will. Recently, The Tanager and I had a brief discussion regarding this topic. Rather than going over the 'whole' of what the term "free will" (may or may not encompass), I instead wanted to hyper-focus on one particular aspect.

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines free will as: "Free will is the capacity for agents to make choices uncoerced by external forces, allowing them to be the authors of their own actions and hold moral responsibility."

The same source views coercion as: "Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act against their will through the use of threats, intimidation, physical force, or psychological pressure. It is used to compel compliance, such as obtaining a confession, forcing a contract signature, or controlling behavior, often involving threats of harm or misuse of authority."

For debate: Does the Bible present any level of coercion? Is this why so many folks apply Pascal's wager, in that they are in the Jesus-camp (just-in-case)? Does the Bible god violate free will, in this aspect, in any capacity?

When parsing this scenario out, let's apply a modern example. A group of Christian missionaries travel abroad to a remote area where many/most/all may not have heard of a Jesus. The Christian missionaries present and preach the words of Jesus to these uninformed folks. "Project conversion" is not going as well as hoped. One of the Christian missionaries, in a last-ditch effort of conversion, decides to quote Mark 16, and tells them -- "the ones who believe in Jesus will be saved, and the ones that do not believe will instead be condemned."

The Bible also speaks about negative outcomes for disbelief in other areas of the Bible too. We can cross those paths as needed.

I don't think the Bible presents any level of coercion.

I disagree.

The passages you shared in that other thread (Mark 16:15-16, Matthew 25:41, John 3:18, and Revelation 20:15) provide information about negative outcomes, but that isn't enough to qualify for coercion.

Jesus created the dichotomous outcomes of either (eternal bliss vs. eternal condemnation) and also then let's folks know that if they are not chosen, he will send them to "condemnation"; as no one sends themself to condemnation. So yes, it is coercion, as defined above.

A parent telling their child that if they touch a hot stove, they will burn their hand is not coercion, for instance.

It's funny you should, of all things, choose a 'hot stove' as your analogy here, as many would find this somewhat synonymous to the concept of 'hell'. A more relevant analogy would instead involve Jesus creating a "hot stove" just to shove all the non-believers onto, if they are not chosen. (i.e.) "If you believe, or if I choose you, this means I "saved" you. If you do not believe, or if I do not choose you, then onto this hot stove you shall go."

Such a concept, regardless of your own brand of "free will", does not really apply.

Your scenario's missionary doesn't get their last-ditch effort idea from those texts or any Biblical texts I'm aware of.

The sighted passages are where the Bible tells the readers where Jesus will place them if they are not a believer or are not chosen. So, yea, this is exactly where these ideas originate.

And I'm not sure many people are in the Jesus camp because of Pascal's wager, but maybe you've got more to back that up.

"Many' is a relative term.

[1213]

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The above means if one is honest and understands simple logic that God(Yahweh-Jesus) violated Pharaoh’s free will.

Nothing in the scriptures support the idea that free will was violated.