Jesus the man, or Jesus the god? Answer = Jesus the man!

[oldbadger]

That is the subject for debate:- Was Jesus a man who challenged a corrupted rich group, or God come to Earth especially for humans?

I've read the gospels a few times, and I feel quite sure that Jesus was a man of the peasant classes (90+% of the whole country) who challenged the wealthy and hypocritical 'Vichy type' rulers of the Palestinian Provinces.

He wanted a return of the Laws of Moses, so many of which had been ignored for so long, and he wanted an honest system that devoted itself to the people and not just a few. I don't believe in long winded essays, rather for short, clear examples, and so I'll post up one example per post.

Example:- Jesus wanted a return of the Laws of Moses......not just a few cherrypicked choices as Christians would prefer.
Matthew 5:17 >> Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.........

So many prophets had come before, calling out for the laws to be supported and kept, and so many rulers had turned away from them.
Church Dogma altered his call and succeeded in destroying these, unless it was convenient to remember them.

Can you show that I'm wrong?

[JehovahsWitness]

That is the subject for debate:- Was Jesus a man who challenged a corrupted rich group, or God come to Earth especially for humans?

Jesus was a man , his conception as such is described in scripture. Almighty God (YHWH) has never chosen to appear in human form but he sent his son to represent Him.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus wanted a return of the Laws of Moses......not just a few cherrypicked choices as Christians would prefer.

Jesus was a Jew and indeed during his earthly ministry encourages his fellow Jews to properly follow the law. HOWEVER (and this is important ) his mission was to fulfill the law, and once that was done replace the Mosaic law in its entirity with a new law code, "The law of Christ"

Scriptural support SEE BELOW ...

[JehovahsWitness]

ROMANS 10:4

For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness

===============================================================

EPHESIANS 2v15

New International Version
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,


Berean Study Bible
by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

GOD'S WORD Translation
He brought an end to the commandments and demands found in Moses' Teachings so that he could take Jewish and non-Jewish people and create one new humanity in himself. So he made peace.

COMMENTARIES

Contained in ordinances - In the Mosaic commandments. The word "ordinance" means, decree, edict, law; Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4; Acts 17:7; Colossians 2:14. - Barnes notes on the bible

The Law is now introduced, and the term is to be taken in its full sense, not the ceremonial law only, but the Mosaic Law as a whole, according to the stated use of the phrase. - Expositor's Greek Testament

FURTHER READING The Early Christians and the Mosaic Law (scritpures included)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2003205


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Does the bible actually refer to the abolishment of "laws and commandments" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p918176

Was the Mosaic COVENANT abolished but the law not abolished?
viewtopic.php?p=1149914#p1149914

Did Jesus not say he had not come to abolish the law [Mat 5:17] ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p965278

Does Mat 5:18 not indicate that none of the Mosaic law would ever pass away?
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To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

BIBLICAL LAW, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ...THE ABRAHAMIC CONVENANT

[oldbadger]

Jesus was a Jew and indeed during his earthly ministry encourages his fellow Jews to properly follow the law.

He does indeed!

HOWEVER (and this is important ) his mission was to fulfill the law, and once that was done replace the Mosaic law in its entirity with a new law code, "The law of Christ"

Scriptural support SEE BELOW ...

.....and that was indeed the church's dogma that swerved the message to it's own taste.

Jesus never mentioned 'the law of Christ'. Only the church told that afterwards.

[TRANSPONDER]

Jesus was a Jew and indeed during his earthly ministry encourages his fellow Jews to properly follow the law.

He does indeed!

HOWEVER (and this is important ) his mission was to fulfill the law, and once that was done replace the Mosaic law in its entirity with a new law code, "The law of Christ"

Scriptural support SEE BELOW ...

.....and that was indeed the church's dogma that swerved the message to it's own taste.

Jesus never mentioned 'the law of Christ'. Only the church told that afterwards.

Yes, you would both agree, I think, that the message is not e Law is wrong or should (or could) "Pass away", but the jews dp on't do it well enough, or it should be moved on in a Be nicer way as in the sermon in Matthew, but the Pauline view is basic in the Synoptucs. Follow the Law and the Jew is close to 'The kingdom of Heaven' (Christianity). One thing is lacking, sell all you have and give it to the churc... i mean, the poor...and Follow Jesus. The law will not save, only Jesus faith or, since he isn't walking about anymore, his church. This is the Pauline take upon which the Synoptics are based.

[oldbadger]

Yes, you would both agree, I think, that the message is not e Law is wrong or should (or could) "Pass away", but the jews dp on't do it well enough, or it should be moved on in a Be nicer way as in the sermon in Matthew, but the Pauline view is basic in the Synoptucs. Follow the Law and the Jew is close to 'The kingdom of Heaven' (Christianity). One thing is lacking, sell all you have and give it to the churc... i mean, the poor...and Follow Jesus. The law will not save, only Jesus faith or, since he isn't walking about anymore, his church. This is the Pauline take upon which the Synoptics are based.

So they could call it the Pauline-Faith, maybe? But nothing to do with Jesus.

And they could take the resurrection with them as well.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes, you would both agree, I think, that the message is not e Law is wrong or should (or could) "Pass away", but the jews dp on't do it well enough, or it should be moved on in a Be nicer way as in the sermon in Matthew, but the Pauline view is basic in the Synoptucs. Follow the Law and the Jew is close to 'The kingdom of Heaven' (Christianity). One thing is lacking, sell all you have and give it to the churc... i mean, the poor...and Follow Jesus. The law will not save, only Jesus faith or, since he isn't walking about anymore, his church. This is the Pauline take upon which the Synoptics are based.

So they could call it the Pauline-Faith, maybe? But nothing to do with Jesus.

And they could take the resurrection with them as well.

They would never do that Badger old mate, because His teachings and Dogma are supposed tro be what Jesus taught and his Dogma. That is why the Jesus - story (which I suspect is more true than many unbelievers might suppose) has been whitewashed over or more apposite sloshed over with pink Christian goo.

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION DID JESUS HIMSELF INDICATES AN END TO THE JEWISH OBLIGATION TO OBEY THE MOSAIC LAW ?

JOHN 4:21
" .. the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship ...."

# The Mosaic law mandated worship in Jerusalem; by stating this would cease to be the case Jesus indicated an end to the laws that requires it.



For a full exposée on the recorded words of Christ on this subject please read the POST : Do the teachings and philosophies of Jesus as expressed in the Gospels, taken by themselves, indicate he intented to start a "new religion"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p792645









JW



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viewtopic.php?p=1081725#p1081725

Did Jesus not say he had not come to abolish the law [Mat 5:17] ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p965278

Does Mat 5:18 not indicate that none of the Mosaic law would ever pass away?
viewtopic.php?p=1042911#p1042911

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

BIBLICAL LAW, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ...THE ABRAHAMIC CONVENANT

[TRANSPONDER]

There we are. The question we must ask is, did Jesus the man or or Jesus, speaking for (if not as) God say this, or is it the message of the Greek Christian writers who (demonstrably) put their doctrinal views into Jesus' mouth?