Our Brain, Our Brain on "God"

[POI]

The default position is that a physical brain is necessary to produce "conscious thought". Theists will argue, in addition, an "external source" is also necessary to give us some or all of our "conscious thought". And by 'external source', this could mean a Christian God, another god(s), or maybe even an evil source, or other such as acting as a 'medium' for dead relatives/other.

For debate: Does the material brain need/require an external source, or 'god(s)', to give us any information? I'm leaning towards no-ish. Why?

1) The only time we get information in which we could not have conjured up completely on our own is when we engage other humans/other. Such as, in a classroom, communicating with others at work, etc... However, when one states they are receiving messages from some "invisible/external source", it seems to be information they can manufacture on their own?
2) If a part of our brain becomes damaged, altered, or destroyed, which controls particular function(s), the brain is no longer able to produce/function in the same manor.
3) Brain tumors have been known to change a person's personality and/or impulse behaviors. It is no longer thought to be because of "evil" external sources.

I'll stop here....

[1213]

The default position is that a physical brain is necessary to produce "conscious thought". Theists will argue, in addition, an "external source" is also necessary to give us some or all of our "conscious thought". And by 'external source', this could mean a Christian God, another god(s), or maybe even an evil source, or other such as acting as a 'medium' for dead relatives/other.

For debate: Does the material brain need/require an external source, or 'god(s)', to give us any information? I'm leaning towards no-ish. Why?

1) The only time we get information in which we could not have conjured up completely on our own is when we engage other humans/other. ...

Difficult to know. I believe God can give information.

3) Brain tumors have been known to change a person's personality and/or impulse behaviors. It is no longer thought to be because of "evil" external sources.

Brain tumor could be caused by "evil". The idea of brain tumor doesn't really exclude the idea of "evil" being the reason.

[TRANSPONDER]

The default position is that a physical brain is necessary to produce "conscious thought". Theists will argue, in addition, an "external source" is also necessary to give us some or all of our "conscious thought". And by 'external source', this could mean a Christian God, another god(s), or maybe even an evil source, or other such as acting as a 'medium' for dead relatives/other.

For debate: Does the material brain need/require an external source, or 'god(s)', to give us any information? I'm leaning towards no-ish. Why?

1) The only time we get information in which we could not have conjured up completely on our own is when we engage other humans/other. ...

Difficult to know. I believe God can give information.

3) Brain tumors have been known to change a person's personality and/or impulse behaviors. It is no longer thought to be because of "evil" external sources.

Brain tumor could be caused by "evil". The idea of brain tumor doesn't really exclude the idea of "evil" being the reason.

What you believe counts for absolutely nothing. What you can produce (valid) evidence for (not just scriptural faithclaims of dogmas) counts.

We know that people exchange information, directly or through information. We know the brain produces our own information.

I have seen no valid evidence that a god is putting any information into our heads, especially when Believers themselves dismiss most of what people say as wrong because they believe something else.

Similarly, there is no evidence that I know of to show that a tumour, brain or elsewhere or any other malady or any other unwelcome thing is caused by 'evil' as though it was some cosmic law, never mind the personal doing of a god (name your own) or, as one person suggested, Satan. Which is what you, 1213, would probably consider information Not from God.

Which really scuppers your whole belief - claim, doesn't it? What you believe (or can deny or dismiss) doesn't matter, what makes logical or evidential sense, does.

106 visitors. that's more like it. I was wondering where everyone was.

[POI]

The default position is that a physical brain is necessary to produce "conscious thought". Theists will argue, in addition, an "external source" is also necessary to give us some or all of our "conscious thought". And by 'external source', this could mean a Christian God, another god(s), or maybe even an evil source, or other such as acting as a 'medium' for dead relatives/other.

For debate: Does the material brain need/require an external source, or 'god(s)', to give us any information? I'm leaning towards no-ish. Why?

1) The only time we get information in which we could not have conjured up completely on our own is when we engage other humans/other. ...

Difficult to know. I believe God can give information.

3) Brain tumors have been known to change a person's personality and/or impulse behaviors. It is no longer thought to be because of "evil" external sources.

Brain tumor could be caused by "evil". The idea of brain tumor doesn't really exclude the idea of "evil" being the reason.

Sorry 1213. But your response adds nothing to propel us forward in any capacity. You might as well of just left this topic alone, and not responded.

[POI]

106 visitors. that's more like it. I was wondering where everyone was.

I will continue to let this topic marinate. But I'm starting to get the feeling that Christians, and/or believers who feel some agency converses with them, is not demonstrable?

[SiNcE_1985]

The default position is that a physical brain is necessary to produce "conscious thought". Theists will argue, in addition, an "external source" is also necessary to give us some or all of our "conscious thought". And by 'external source', this could mean a Christian God, another god(s), or maybe even an evil source, or other such as acting as a 'medium' for dead relatives/other.

For debate: Does the material brain need/require an external source, or 'god(s)', to give us any information? I'm leaning towards no-ish. Why?

Of course you lean towards no-ish.

That's what atheists/agnostics do.

They lean away from supernatural implications.

1) The only time we get information in which we could not have conjured up completely on our own is when we engage other humans/other. Such as, in a classroom, communicating with others at work, etc... However, when one states they are receiving messages from some "invisible/external source", it seems to be information they can manufacture on their own?

As I stated elsewhere...you have a chicken & egg problem.

What came first: the brain, or the consciousness?

2) If a part of our brain becomes damaged, altered, or destroyed, which controls particular function(s), the brain is no longer able to produce/function in the same manor.

Before inner workings are discussed, we need to discuss origins.. thus, the chicken & egg problem above^.

3) Brain tumors have been known to change a person's personality and/or impulse behaviors. It is no longer thought to be because of "evil" external sources.

God doesn't hold anyone accountable for things they cannot control.

I'll stop here....

Please.

[POI]

What came first: the brain, or the consciousness?

If I had a gun to my head, I'd say the brain. As brains evolved, higher levels of consciousness then emerged from these material brains.

Answering a question with a question, to present my position.

Can consciousness exist without the brain? I say no-ish? You likely say the opposite. I say 'no' for the reasons I mentioned in the OP.

Before inner workings are discussed, we need to discuss origins.. thus, the chicken & egg problem above^.

See above. It's one of the reasons I feel a physical brain is required to produce our consciousness. My current position is, if one's human brain is removed, damaged, or other, they no longer have ability to produce consciousness. Consciousness comes from a working physical and material brain. I do not believe consciousness is instead floating around independent of physical brains.

God doesn't hold anyone accountable for things they cannot control.

Again, this is not the point. If a tumor invades the brain enough, their consciousness is either altered or ceases to exist. This means the brain is required to drive consciousness.

Please.

Here comes more of that attitude. Please refrain from doing this. You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes. A poster on my Other piano, raised more bad apologetics in favor and even favour of a Cosmic Mind than you could shake a Auxiliary legionary's spear at. and his answer to the malfunctioning brain was (Of course) and Excuse. They just don't see it, do they, but the logic is not excusing God (or just a cosmic mind or Creator and name your own religion and god) but providing reasonable argument that something is So, not any and all excuses and denial to dismiss evidence that it isn't.

Anyweigh, his excuse was thge 'radio receiver' apologetic. The brain is like a radio that gets messages from God. Never mind diseases of the brain, even apparently healthy brains get different messages from different gods or even the same one. 'Garbled transmission' he said. Ok, ok, we know, we know; any excuse to push away debunks, but the point is that is not going to make sense to not only atheists but to anyone who is not signed up to the cult.

Another thing was a Looong discussion on the hard question and the philosopher thought it was 'logically impossible' for a mind to exist without a body. But I reckoned it was possible for a mind (electronic patterns) to exist in space But it would b need to have been based on a material mind (brain to start with to give it formation. So consciousness may exist after a being has passed on but it seems intellectually improbable for a mind to have even come to exist without having a body first.

That's not to say certainly let alone faithbased lifechanging Belief, but that is the more probable hypothesis, it seems to me, and never mind faithbased denial that the theists (sortagoddists or irreligious theists) seems to cling to.

[Clownboat]

Of course you lean towards no-ish.

That's what atheists/agnostics do.

They lean away from supernatural implications.

Atheists do not believe in any of the available god concepts that humans have come up with. You are an atheists towards all god, less one. Therefore you are more atheist then you would like to admit and your words just come across as poisoning the well.

What came first: the brain, or the consciousness?

Since consciousness cannot be detected without a brain, I would lean towards a brain being needed first. Any idea why you asked this question? Do you pretend to have this knowledge?

God doesn't hold anyone accountable for things they cannot control.

Can you show that you speak the truth as your words don't seem true when we look to the Bible, which I assume is the source for your god beliefs?

The evidence:
Exodus 20:5
New International Version
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

[Diogenes]

This is a favorite theme of mine. Hundreds... thousands of years ago, it made sense to explain the wonder of human consciousness by imagining a 'spirit,' an external 'X' that injected 'mind' into an otherwise lifeless, merely physical body. The heart was considered the seat of this spirit.
Later our ancestors discovered the heart is simply a pump. Now of course we know that consciousness, 'mind,' emerges from the 100 Billion neurons in the brain and the 100 Trillion neural connections, rendering the 'miracle' of this magical 'soul' as unnecessary, no more real than fairies or gods to explain natural phenomena.

POI and others have set out some of the evidence about how the brain works and how it explains consciousness, with the proof being the fact that physical (trauma or chemical) changes to the tissue result in changes in consciousness.
Some never got the memo, preferring the magical explanations from various religions. This is yet another example of how some cling to tradition and ancient beliefs over facts, knowledge, and the true nature of this wondrous world.

"God did it" is no explanation at all.