God knows who He favors, God knows who He has chosen

[Stewardofthemystery]

To be saved by God’s grace means you have been saved by God’s favor. So God favors some over others. Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

And some think they have chosen God, but that means nothing if God has not chosen them. It is God who chooses whom He favors, it is God who chooses to have mercy on whomsoever He will. God has chosen His elect even before the world began.

In this we can see and understand there is no room for boasting in works on our part for being chosen by God, and saved by His grace.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[The Tanager]

I know you've been here a little while, but I don't think I've interacted with you. Welcome Stewardofthemystery! While I certainly agree there is no place for boasting in our works for being chosen by God and saved by His grace, we do disagree on the predestination question. In regards to Ephesians 1:4, I have a few questions for you.

(1) Why do you believe he chose us individuals in Christ instead of he chose us, as in the community of Christ followers as a whole group?

(2) In verse 5, why do you interpret the predestining here in the causal sense (God's predestination of certain individuals prompted his choice of them) instead of an instrumental sense (the means by which God's choice was accomplished was by predestination)?

(3) In verse 13, why is it when we believe in Christ that we are marked, rather than when God chose us before the foundation of the world?

Thanks for your thoughts to help me challenge my own view!

[Mae von H]

To be saved by God’s grace means you have been saved by God’s favor. So God favors some over others. Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

And some think they have chosen God, but that means nothing if God has not chosen them. It is God who chooses whom He favors, it is God who chooses to have mercy on whomsoever He will. God has chosen His elect even before the world began.

In this we can see and understand there is no room for boasting in works on our part for being chosen by God, and saved by His grace.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

What a hard cruel being described above.

The Bible actually says God so loved the world.

It says it’s not His will that any perish

It says that at points in time many will fall away from the faith,

It’s also clear that God’s will is not done on the earth. The post I’m answering is an example.

[Stewardofthemystery]

To be saved by God’s grace means you have been saved by God’s favor. So God favors some over others. Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

And some think they have chosen God, but that means nothing if God has not chosen them. It is God who chooses whom He favors, it is God who chooses to have mercy on whomsoever He will. God has chosen His elect even before the world began.

In this we can see and understand there is no room for boasting in works on our part for being chosen by God, and saved by His grace.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

What a hard cruel being described above.

The Bible actually says God so loved the world.

It says it’s not His will that any perish

It says that at points in time many will fall away from the faith,

It’s also clear that God’s will is not done on the earth. The post I’m answering is an example.

Truth is without Gods grace no man would be saved.
It is also written that if any man love the world the love of the Father is not in Him.

Even Jesus said he did not pray for the world…

John 17:9-10
King James Version
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.”

Also, if God was not willing that any man should perish, then they would not perish, because God can do whatsoever He wills. But we also know by the words of God that many shall perish, and some vessels are made for destruction.

I believe Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 was trying to convey this message in

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Paul says this about Gods will and election…

Romans 9:11-24
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?“

Peace

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Stewardofthemystery in post #4]

I said what needed to be said. Calvinists believe in a very cruel God and interestingly enough, wield scripture like a lawyer (which Calvin was) to prove their point. They accept He is cruel (although won’t admit it) and defend that by showing isolated sentences that prove He is so.

I wrote because there are many atheists here (we’re outnumbered) who clearly see that this being is unbelievably cruel and they don’t believe for that reason. I stand with them in their astute observation so that they know on this point they are (obviously) right, that deity is cruel, and I don’t believe in that god either. But that cruel beyond Satan’s cruelty (who hates all man equally…no favorites) deity is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[Stewardofthemystery]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #5]
I’m not a Calvanist, but I am a believer in God’s Word and words. It is by God’s words that we get to know what God is like. God is a God of love, but He is a God that also loves righteousness and hates wickedness.

If people don’t love God’s words, then they will not love God either.

That is the condemnation, that people love the darkness more than the Light, as God’s Word is Light.

Peace

[The Tanager]

Even Jesus said he did not pray for the world…

John 17:9-10
King James Version
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.”

Jesus also says to pray for your enemy and those who mistreat you (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:28). Here he seems to be praying just for the disciples, but that doesn’t mean he never prayed for the world.

Yet, even in this prayer, Jesus prays that his own will be one “that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” He’s still concerned for the world in this very prayer you point to that he doesn’t care about the world.

Also, if God was not willing that any man should perish, then they would not perish, because God can do whatsoever He wills. But we also know by the words of God that many shall perish, and some vessels are made for destruction.

I believe Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 was trying to convey this message in

But this verse directly says that he is not willing that any man should perish and that is why He hasn’t returned yet, to give people more time to repent. What verse speaks of vessels of destruction in this passage that makes you think Peter is conveying that message here?

Romans 9:11-24
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?“

I have a few questions here. Why do you interpret the choosing of Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau as about individual salvation instead of them being the son through whom the lineage of the promised offspring (Gen 3:15) will come through? Paul just got done saying salvation isn’t about descent. You aren’t a child of the promise because you are a descendant of Abraham. Instead, it is counted through Isaac (v. 7), but that doesn’t mean all of Isaac’s kids are saved. The same goes with Jacob. This line he is tracing isn’t about which individuals are saved, but the line the Messiah will come through.

Why isn Malachi 1:2-3, quoted here, addressing Esau as an individual in regards to his salvation and not his descendants’ rejection of God hundreds of years later and the judgment that came on them?

With Pharaoh, why do you think we are talking about Pharaoh’s individual salvation here and not about electing to use Pharaoh and his stubbornness to show his power to Israel and the Egyptians? This quote is from Exodus 9:16. In verse 15 God says he could have already destroyed Pharaoh, but he is being patient and Egyptians listen and take heed (v. 20)

These are all examples of electing people for certain purposes, not electing them to individual salvation and damnation. This election for a certain purpose is what the honor/dishonor refers to, not whether they are saved or damned.

As to verse 23, why do you read this as God predestined some to salvation and some to damnation in order to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy? God has already accomplished that (in the logic of your view) by simply choosing them. This verse makes it sound like God is trying to convince them of something you say they have by predestination. It sounds unnecessary.

And, in case you just missed post #2, regarding Ephesians 1: Why do you believe he chose us individuals in Christ instead of he chose us, as in the community of Christ followers as a whole group? In verse 5, why do you interpret the predestining here in the causal sense (God's predestination of certain individuals prompted his choice of them) instead of an instrumental sense (the means by which God's choice was accomplished was by predestination)? In verse 13, why is it when we believe in Christ that we are marked, rather than when God chose us before the foundation of the world?

[Stewardofthemystery]

Even Jesus said he did not pray for the world…

John 17:9-10
King James Version
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.”

Jesus also says to pray for your enemy and those who mistreat you (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:28). Here he seems to be praying just for the disciples, but that doesn’t mean he never prayed for the world.

Yet, even in this prayer, Jesus prays that his own will be one “that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” He’s still concerned for the world in this very prayer you point to that he doesn’t care about the world.

Also, if God was not willing that any man should perish, then they would not perish, because God can do whatsoever He wills. But we also know by the words of God that many shall perish, and some vessels are made for destruction.

I believe Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 was trying to convey this message in

But this verse directly says that he is not willing that any man should perish and that is why He hasn’t returned yet, to give people more time to repent. What verse speaks of vessels of destruction in this passage that makes you think Peter is conveying that message here?

Romans 9:11-24
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?“

I have a few questions here. Why do you interpret the choosing of Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau as about individual salvation instead of them being the son through whom the lineage of the promised offspring (Gen 3:15) will come through? Paul just got done saying salvation isn’t about descent. You aren’t a child of the promise because you are a descendant of Abraham. Instead, it is counted through Isaac (v. 7), but that doesn’t mean all of Isaac’s kids are saved. The same goes with Jacob. This line he is tracing isn’t about which individuals are saved, but the line the Messiah will come through.

Why isn Malachi 1:2-3, quoted here, addressing Esau as an individual in regards to his salvation and not his descendants’ rejection of God hundreds of years later and the judgment that came on them?

With Pharaoh, why do you think we are talking about Pharaoh’s individual salvation here and not about electing to use Pharaoh and his stubbornness to show his power to Israel and the Egyptians? This quote is from Exodus 9:16. In verse 15 God says he could have already destroyed Pharaoh, but he is being patient and Egyptians listen and take heed (v. 20)

These are all examples of electing people for certain purposes, not electing them to individual salvation and damnation. This election for a certain purpose is what the honor/dishonor refers to, not whether they are saved or damned.

As to verse 23, why do you read this as God predestined some to salvation and some to damnation in order to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy? God has already accomplished that (in the logic of your view) by simply choosing them. This verse makes it sound like God is trying to convince them of something you say they have by predestination. It sounds unnecessary.

And, in case you just missed post #2, regarding Ephesians 1: Why do you believe he chose us individuals in Christ instead of he chose us, as in the community of Christ followers as a whole group? In verse 5, why do you interpret the predestining here in the causal sense (God's predestination of certain individuals prompted his choice of them) instead of an instrumental sense (the means by which God's choice was accomplished was by predestination)? In verse 13, why is it when we believe in Christ that we are marked, rather than when God chose us before the foundation of the world?

What verse shows Jesus praying for the world?

I gave John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.“

So if you know of a verse where Jesus is praying for this present evil world then please post it.

I don’t know how to multi-qoute on this forum yet, and I’m using a phone to post, so I will have to respond to each point separately. Peace

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager, to the second part of your question about what Peter meant in 2 Peter 3:9 I had already answered that in my first post.

Here it is again….

I believe Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 was trying to convey this message shown in Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Peace

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager asked “What verse speaks of vessels of destruction”

Here is the verse I also quoted earlier…

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”