God knows who He favors, God knows who He has chosen

[Stewardofthemystery]

To be saved by God’s grace means you have been saved by God’s favor. So God favors some over others. Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

And some think they have chosen God, but that means nothing if God has not chosen them. It is God who chooses whom He favors, it is God who chooses to have mercy on whomsoever He will. God has chosen His elect even before the world began.

In this we can see and understand there is no room for boasting in works on our part for being chosen by God, and saved by His grace.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager asked “I have a few questions here. Why do you interpret the choosing of Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau as about individual salvation instead of them being the son through whom the lineage of the promised offspring (Gen 3:15) will come through? Paul just got done saying salvation isn’t about descent” ( end quote)

The reason I posted Romans 9 was because Paul was talking about the purpose of God according to election

Again…11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

What do think predestination means?

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager said “These are all examples of electing people for certain purposes, not electing them to individual salvation and damnation. This election for a certain purpose is what the honor/dishonor refers to, not whether they are saved or damned.”(end qoute)

And so why can’t that purpose for being elected and chosen by God before the world began be about salvation?

If it Is God’s will and purpose to predestine some to be saved, then so be it.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[The Tanager]

What verse shows Jesus praying for the world?

I gave John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.“

So if you know of a verse where Jesus is praying for this present evil world then please post it.

Do you think the enemy Jesus tells his disciples to pray for (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:28) is not those of the world? If not, then who is the enemy to the disciples?

You also didn’t respond to the second part of my response on this passage. Jesus prays for his disciples so that the world will believe in Him (John 17:21, 23).

Tanager, to the second part of your question about what Peter meant in 2 Peter 3:9 I had already answered that in my first post.

Here it is again….

I believe Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 was trying to convey this message shown in Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ah, okay. That’s a bit confusing, though, because that passage in Ezekiel portrays God as wanting and delighting when the world repents, and you were arguing that God wills that some people perish.

The reason I posted Romans 9 was because Paul was talking about the purpose of God according to election

Again…11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

What do think predestination means?

I think God predestined/elected the way of salvation. God elects how salvation takes place. He could have made it about being a descendant of Abraham, He could have made it about people who didn’t break the rules, but instead he elected to bring it about through the Messiah (through Isaac and then through Jacob). Individuals decide whether to join that predestined way to salvation or reject it. Another way to say the same thing, predestination is corporate, not individual. God elects to save all those who choose to be found in Christ rather than those who choose to be found in their ethnicity or deeds or anything else.

Does this mean God is unjust (v. 14)? Absolutely not. God can decide to show mercy and compassion through Jesus instead of basing it off of ethnicity or deeds.

And so why can’t that purpose for being elected and chosen by God before the world began be about salvation?

If it Is God’s will and purpose to predestine some to be saved, then so be it.

It could, if the context supported that; I don’t think it does. The examples used are Isaac being the line of promise instead of Ishmael; Jacob being the child of promise instead of Esau, and Pharaoh not being immediately destroyed so that Israel and Egypt will come to know God. Neither Isaac, Jacob/Esau, nor Pharaoh is their individual salvation focused on.

Why do you think Romans 9 is about Isaac and Jacob and Esau’s individual salvation instead of them being chosen/rejected to be part of the Messianic line? Why is it about Pharaoh’s individual salvation instead of being used by God to patiently show his greatness to more people so that they will repent?

Why do you think Malachi 1:2-3 is talking about Esau’s individual salvation instead of his descendants (hundreds of years later) rejection of God and judgment?

Why do you think (in Romans 9:23) that God would need to harden Pharaoh to convert the vessels of mercy He has already chosen?

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We know all things work together for the good for those who love God (8:28). Why? Because those God foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Paul is talking about being persecuted (8:18). We have hope in the midst of these sufferings because we know God is using it to conform us to His image. Verse 30 continues that thought. These sufferings can separate us from God.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This fits corporate election. God predestined those in Christ, that group (whomever joins it) to be adopted because of His good will (not wishing that any should perish). Those in Christ have obtained an inheritance. Why do you think it is talking about individual election? Why do you side with predestination in verse 5 being translated in a causal sense (which could support individual election) verses an instrumental sense (which would seem to support corporate election) when normal Greek syntax would have us translate an aorist principle following an aorist main verb more likely to be instrumental? Why are we marked when we believe in Christ and not when God chose us before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:13)?

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This fits perfectly with corporate election as well. Why do you think it doesn't?

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager said “Do you think the enemy Jesus tells his disciples to pray for (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:28) is not those of the world? If not, then who is the enemy to the disciples?

You also didn’t respond to the second part of my response on this passage. Jesus prays for his disciples so that the world will believe in Him (John 17:21, 23).(end quote)

Sure the enemies are of the world. But Jesus didn’t pray for the world, he prayed for those who God had chosen out of the world and given to him…

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Look at what Jesus says in John 17….

John 17:14-20
King James Version
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”


So Jesus is not praying for the whole world, but for those who shall believe in Him through their preaching.

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager said “I think God predestined/elected the way of salvation. God elects how salvation takes place”(end quote)

But those verses do not say that God elected or predestined the way of salvation. It says God has predestined individuals to be saved.

Notice…

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Clearly these verses are talking about people being predestined to salvation.

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager said “God elects to save all those who choose to be found in Christ rather than those who choose to be found in their ethnicity or deeds or anything else.”(end quote)

That is not what Jesus said….
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

God is the one who chooses His elect/chosen to salvation from the very beginning…

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[The Tanager]

Sure the enemies are of the world. But Jesus didn’t pray for the world, he prayed for those who God had chosen out of the world and given to him…

Yes, but I’m talking about Matt 5:44 and Luke 6:28 in relation to this. Are you saying Jesus told his followers there to pray for the world and love them even though He doesn’t pray for them and love them? If so, why?

You still haven’t replied to my question about John 17:21, 23. Why don’t those verses show Jesus loves the world and wants them to believe in Him?

You also didn’t reply to the Ezekiel/2 Peter bit. You said you read 2 Peter differently because of Ezekiel 18:23, but Ezekiel 18 shows God wanting and delighting in the world when it repents. This seems to back up Peter’s claim that God isn’t willing that any should perish, but you read both as saying the opposite.

But those verses do not say that God elected or predestined the way of salvation. It says God has predestined individuals to be saved.

Notice…

Quoting the verses isn’t enough, because we have two competing interpretations of the same texts. I haven’t been saying “yeah, but here’s another verse,” I’ve been addressing the same verses you are quoting.

Romans 8:29-30 is within the context of Paul telling Christians that their suffering doesn’t mean God has abandoned them. God is using that suffering to conform us to the image of His Son. That’s the context; not individual salvation.

That is followed by Romans 9, which talks about God choosing Isaac, Jacob, and Pharaoh, but says nothing of their individual salvation. The context is comparing (1) God’s choice of bringing salvation through the Messiah instead of through ethnicity, and (2) God’s choice of using Pharaoh’s stubbornness to allow people more time to turn to Him and listen. If it was about individual predestination to salvation, wouldn’t God have just chosen them? He wouldn’t need to use Pharaoh’s actions to try to get them to change their mind; He’d simply change their mind.

Ephesians 1:5 doesn’t say God predestined individuals unto adoption of children by Jesus. Neither does it explicitly say God predestined that those who freely choose Christ are adopted as children. Both interpretations fit that part. Eph 1:11 doesn’t say individuals are predestined or that those who freely choose Christ are predestined. It’s more ambiguous; both interpretations fit.

What causes me to side with the corporate predestination here is the context that I’ve already pointed out, that you aren’t offering counter interpretations of. Predestining in verse 5, we are told, is most naturally translated in the instrumental sense rather than the causal sense which supports the corporate sense over the individual predestination sense. It would also make more sense for us to be marked with the seal at the same time we are predestined. Under corporate election, when we choose to be found in Christ, we become part of the predestined and it is then that we are marked with the seal.

In Eph 2:13, Paul says that now that we are in Christ, we are brought near to God. On predestination, we have always been in Christ, but are only brought near to God at our forced conversion.

That is not what Jesus said….
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

If Jesus’ ‘choice’ here is about predestining individuals to salvation, then this verse would say that Jesus predestined one as his follower that then rejected him. It seems more sensible to say Jesus choose these as his 12 even knowing one of those he chose was going to reject Him.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Leading up to these verses, in John 15:4-14, Jesus tells them to remain in Him and He will remain in them. If Jesus chose them, how can they not remain in Him? If they can’t not remain in Him, why would Jesus tell them to remain in Him? Then Jesus talks about choosing them. What does He choose for us? To be saved individually? It doesn’t say that. It says Jesus chose us to go and bear fruit (16) and not to live like the world (19). He’s calling His disciples to live it out. We can only do this by choosing to be found in Christ like a branch connected to a vine.

God is the one who chooses His elect/chosen to salvation from the very beginning…

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This fits corporate election just as well as individual election. What do you make of 2 Thess 2:12? All those who have not believed the truth, but delighted in evil will be condemned. Why doesn’t it say “all those God chose for damnation will be condemned?” That would be a clear teaching of individual predestination. I only think corporate election makes sense of this whole passage. God chose those in Christ from the beginning for salvation (13). Therefore, hold on to what we taught (15). Individual predestination doesn’t allow for us not to hold on to what we taught.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

1 Peter 2:1 tells us to get rid of all evil, deceit, hypocrisy, etc. If we are predestined, we can’t keep from getting rid of it; it’s already decided. Peter then quotes Psalm 34 which tells us (v. 6) that the oppressed man who cries out to God is saved. It doesn’t say the oppressed man [that God chose for salvation but not the one God chose for damnation] who cries out to God is saved. It tells us (v. 8) to taste and see the Lord is good, to everyone, not just those God chose for salvation. God’s chosen people (the Jews) are told to fear God; it doesn’t say “chosen people, you can’t keep from fearing the Lord”. Verse 22 says all who take shelter in Him escape punishment; it doesn’t say all whom God chose before the world was created take shelter in Him and will, therefore, escape punishment.

Back to 1 Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, talks about those who believe not being put to shame. Why not say “whoever I have already determined will believe in Me, won’t be put to shame”? He calls all those (in Jesus) a chosen race but chosen for what? Not individual salvation, but to proclaim God’s light to non-Christians so they may glorify God (v. 12). If we are all predestined individually, this is unnecessary.

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tanager said “Quoting the verses isn’t enough, because we have two competing interpretations of the same texts. I haven’t been saying “yeah, but here’s another verse,” I’ve been addressing the same verses you are quoting. (End quote)

I am giving you the words of God to prove all my points about election and predestination and you are just giving me your opinion on why you don’t believe those verses are saying what they are clearly stating.

If God does not choose His elect and predestine them to salvation from the foundation of the world then prove it BY THE WORDS OF GOD.

If your interpretation is not based or supported by multiple verses of scripture, (like I have provided) then you are just giving me your opinion.

God knows the names of every individual He has chosen and predestined to be saved since the foundation of the world.

Those names are written in God’s book of life, and those names were written from the foundation of the world,

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So God has foreknowledge of every name who He has predestined and chosen to be written in His book of life.

If you don’t believe this, then that is just your opinion.

Peace

[Stewardofthemystery]

More verses proving election and predestination by God….

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

Sounds just like what Paul was saying here concerning election by God…

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

God has always reserved unto Himself a remnant according to election by grace…

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Notice what it says about the Lord adding to the church daily such as should be saved…

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The scriptural proof is overwhelming that it is God who chooses His elect and it is God who has predestined them to be saved by His grace.

Peace

[The Tanager]

I am giving you the words of God to prove all my points about election and predestination and you are just giving me your opinion on why you don’t believe those verses are saying what they are clearly stating.

If God does not choose His elect and predestine them to salvation from the foundation of the world then prove it BY THE WORDS OF GOD.

If your interpretation is not based or supported by multiple verses of scripture, (like I have provided) then you are just giving me your opinion.

No, you are giving your interpretation of the words of God and I’m giving you my interpretation of those very same words with reasoning to support it that draws on the verses around those verses that you quote. Instead of responding to my interpretation with how it is wrong and yours is right, digging into the context and bringing it to bear, you are (1) claiming your interpretation is just the clear meaning, which is begging the question not giving support and (2) quoting more verses and assuming your interpretation of those by begging the question not providing good hermeneutics.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So God has foreknowledge of every name who He has predestined and chosen to be written in His book of life.

Why not interpret that as God knowing who will freely choose Him? And what do you make of Rev 3:5, when Jesus notes that names can be erased from the book of life?

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

Sounds just like what Paul was saying here concerning election by God…

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

God has always reserved unto Himself a remnant according to election by grace…

It does sound very similar. God chose Jeremiah to be individually saved? No, to be a prophet to the nations. God chose Jacob to be individually saved and Esau to be damned? No, God chose Jacob as the messianic line instead of Esau. These choices are not about individual salvation.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Contextually, Paul says that this doesn’t mean every Jew has missed the Jesus boat; he is in fact a Jew and there are others that are currently Christians. Why are they in and other Jews out? Because they relied on Jesus’ grace, not their ethnicity or deeds. Those who are elected (those in Christ) live out that grace, while those that reject that are stumbling (v. 8). But will all that are not elect, those stumbling, always continue in that way? No, because some of those that Paul just distinguished from the elect will be restored (v. 12). On your view, the non-elect couldn’t ever become the elect, but this is directly what Paul says will happen. Verse 28 is about how God still offers salvation to all the Israelites, that Paul distinguished from being the elect because of their current disobedience, in hopes they will choose to be found in Christ (and become the elect).

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Here Paul is talking about how he knows they are in Jesus because of their fruits. He doesn’t say we know God has chosen you because God predestined you from the foundation of the world. He’s not addressing election here, but saying their faith is obviously real by their actions.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter is talking about the same thing. The things Peter has just mentioned before this (to faith add goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly affection, unselfish love) is evidence of their salvation.

Notice what it says about the Lord adding to the church daily such as should be saved…

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

In the Greek it says God added to their number those who were being saved, not that he added to the church those that (he predetermined) should be saved.